Betsy Jordyn 0:00
Welcome back to another episode of The not Friday podcast. This is the show for consultants and coaches that want to forge their own paths to success in their careers and in their lives. I'm your host, Betsy Jordyn, I'm a business mentor, and I'm a brand messaging strategist. And I've got a very special unique show that I'm not sure how it's gonna go. today. I'm doing my first true on air coaching with Kamaria. Scott, who we knew each other a million years ago, when I did a speech, I think at the good network, and she was in her corporate job. And she said at some point, I'm gonna do my own thing. But now Now, and now is the right time for her. So she's getting out and starting her brand new consulting business. And so we reconnected around her messaging, I gave her some homework, and we're like, I think we could do it just like with us. And then we thought this could be a cool learning experience. So if you want to know what it's like and be a fly on the wall, join in on this on air coaching session. And welcome to the show Kumar. Yeah. Thank you,
Kamaria Scott 1:07
thank you for helping me. Here I go. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to do this honor coaching. But I'm also just really grateful for your support as I navigate this transition in my life. So happy to be here.
Betsy Jordyn 1:20
Well, I'm really excited that we got reconnected because I remember the moment we got reconnected as I saw a picture that you had posted with you, and a guest that I had on the show several, actually, probably over a year ago, Lee cockerel and I'm like, Oh my gosh, two of my favorite people. And then I started noticing that you have a podcast on manager to manager. So that made me think something is definitely afoot over here. So talk to me a little bit about your transition from your job into this new business starting your podcast. And where are you got stuck in terms of your messaging?
Kamaria Scott 1:56
Absolutely. So yeah, that was an amazing sort of wonderful Disney moment of being able to hear Lee Cockerell speaking, have him affirmed some of the things that I believe about leadership. But what was really cool was just even getting somebody else sort of owning his brand. And using that to further his career, which is which of course I'm trying to do. So I have been, like most of your like most of the people you help in corporate America for over 20 years, and have worked with some amazing companies being why Mellon, FIS Accenture. And in all of those roles, I tell people, I've pretty much done the same thing. Leadership, Culture, change, and and learning. And what I noticed throughout my career is that I would always arrive at some place that had a blank slate of a situation. So there was no leadership development, no cultures to speak of. And somehow I would end up in these projects where I was either teaching coaching training managers. And then I had a few projects that I was super proud of, where I really had the opportunity to help an organization define its management culture, and really say, what does good look like if we if we had something that was unique to us? What would that be? So I had the opportunity to sort of build a leadership brand for an organization, and then build around that to help him be successful. And then like, like many of us, I think, who get to a stage in our careers where I went through my third layoff, and I was like, gosh, we're gonna get two more I should get a fruit basket or something. But it's fine. I took it as a sign that the universe was like, Girl now why not now and and anybody who knows me and also knows that, you know, when you when I met, the thing that was like holding me back was that I had a child and a very expensive private school. And so I was like, this is not the time for taking leaps and bounds with my career. I'll take my two week paycheck, thank you. But he is now 20 years old, thriving in college. And so this sort of third layoff was like, the Universal Mind and said, Your your child is sufficient. He's doing well. You know, you're in a place in your life where you can take more risks with your career. So why not take this thing that you've been doing? You've been really honing and refining over year over years and turn it into a business. And so the really nice thing about with it, they gave us a lovely runway, they gave us three months to kind of figure out what our next steps are going to be. And I had launched podcasts internally and my last two organizations and so I knew I love talking to people, leaders and love telling your stories. But more importantly, from all of the work that I had done with managers, thing that I found most interesting is that everyone always talks about managers what a good manager does what a bad manager does, and no one ever talks to managers to hear about their experiences and what it's like to really do the role so managers a manager became my love letter to people meters. And it was my sort of way of talking to managers about the real life experiences of leading teams, what they do well, so they can share their best practices, and even some of the places where they struggle, and they could use support from organizations.
Betsy Jordyn 5:13
Okay, so this is really good messaging, this is really, really good. But then when we talked, when we first started working together, it was almost like, Okay, now this is clearer, and are getting clearer, and then you started pulling away from it. So what's the temptation? Like? Why is it all sudden, you know, you're like, Okay, well, that's not a good enough, you know, like, that's too narrow. Why'd you do go the other way?
Kamaria Scott 5:38
When you say that's too narrow meaning like, like
Betsy Jordyn 5:42
you were, you were saying, Well, you know, like what we talked about the other day? Or like, oh, well, you know, everyone's saying you could do so much more leadership culture, you know, and you moved away from this manager thing, and you wanted to go more broadly, is what you are working on with your messaging? iOS. So why did you go in that direction? When this feels like, Okay, this makes sense. You have a passion for this particular level in the organization? I know, I'm going over here. Yes.
Kamaria Scott 6:06
Well, I think one of the reasons why I was considering going more broadly is because when what I see in organizations is that what happens with your manager population is symptomatic of what's happening in the broader organization. And so it feels very niche to say I work with managers, and to say, not only do I work with them, in not just training. So I think sometimes people hear like you work with managers that think, Oh, she's a training delivery person. And that's not quite it at all. Instead, the broad piece is helping them to figure out how do you actually change an entire manager population at scale together. And that's very different than sending people to training. But from I think in this is where I think consultants get stuck it from what's in my head to to using my methods, you didn't get people to understand that no, I'm not just a trainer. And no, I'm not just another person, other vendor trying to sell you management training. That was the part where I was like, well, maybe it needs to be a little bit broader so people can understand the full scope or impact of what I'm trying to help them do.
Betsy Jordyn 7:16
Okay, so this is what we talked about the other day, that I think that this would be a helpful conversation to have, before we get into, why did you decide that you needed to work more on your brand messaging from that conversation. So I'm going to share what I shared the other day, and then you can respond back is that there's, there's a difference between I need to explain and educate my audience on everything. Like I don't want to get pigeonholed, and try to make it a marketing problem. And that's really a sales problem. And so what we talked about the other day is like on your when it comes to your website, and when it comes to your brand messaging, what you're really trying to do is just make a connection between a person and a problem. And you it's kind of like if my nose is runny, I'm gonna go grab like not a tissue, but I'm gonna grab a Kleenex, there's a connection in the marketplace. Now sure, I for sure use my lip my Kleenex to blot my lips, you know, and to clean things out and clean my you know, my computer and I use Kleenex variety, different things. But the primary thing is that connection so that I know if I have a nosy runny nose, nosy run now already knows, I want to go for a Kleenex. Similar. That's what we're working on from a branding standpoint, when it comes to a client saying, Oh, you have training, you know, can you come and help me design and deliver training, I would say for any consultant, or coach working in an organization that is going to be the go to request, no matter what you say. That's how leaders think they look for that panacea, it's training. And what I teach people in the heart where you're landing work, is how do you pivot the client away from their favorite solution to have training and the words you know, training is often necessary, rarely sufficient, let's back up and talk about what's going on in the business. Get them to articulate their goals. And then you can share, you know, in your proposal is like, well, actually to transform the behavior that you're looking for. We do need to have training. But we also need clear performance expectations, a supportive work environment, we need align measures. And we need this other whole thing. Now, let me tell you how I can help you with the whole kit and caboodle. But they don't know what they don't know. But the website and your marketing messaging is not there to educate your audience, on all the things that they don't know. At that point in time, they're not going to know it. So you just kind of have to accept it. And it would be great to even have on your website is management training would be great, because that's what they're looking for. But you can shape their thinking in the sales process. So we talked about that. So, so respond to me on that one, because you might be like, it doesn't make sense. I want to I don't I don't want to do that. I just want the right aligned people who want my comprehensive systems thinking solution to show up. So give me your thoughts and feedback on that.
Kamaria Scott 9:58
Well, so I'll tell you I I agree with you in terms of like, using language to let people know that you are the person that they're looking for, and not necessarily using language to say, this is what I'm selling. And so I think what was interesting for me is like, you know, you gave me some great pre work and some assignments to do, and I had to start sort of working through will, what do I want them to know, right? Or do how do I want them to identify their problem and even be able to recognize that they need my support? And so I think that shifted mission thing for me happened when, as I was I was kind of working through and trying to figure out, well, what problem am I solving for them? And how will they know? How will they recognize the problem, and I think you and I started talking, and it's interesting, because it might my natural language, when I'm not trying to put on my marketing hat and be an entrepreneur, if I'm inside of an organization, the way that the thing that people resonate with when I say to them is your, your leadership team, your leadership practices are like the wild, wild west, everyone's doing their own thing. And you want them to be doing something that is similar and consistent and predictable, that is as unique to your culture. And so every time I say that to people, they instantly get it. And so I think what you did for me was you shifted my brain to not necessarily the how do I jump to solution for them? But how do I at least get them to acknowledge that they have the problem that I'm talking about? And then that intrigues them enough to want to have a conversation?
Betsy Jordyn 11:31
Yes, that's exactly it. And and it's what's interesting is, is that we think, you know, there's three parts of the brand, the brand positioning that I suggest that people look at, you know, number one is the ideal client, and the problem you solve, like, what's the context that Your help is needed? And for who the middle part is like, Okay, what do you do? And how is it different? And then the final part is, what's the value, you know, what's the transformation, we focus on the middle part, and that we think that that's the biggest thing, but it's like a, you know, a hamburger like, or actually, you know, McDonald's hamburger, it's the smallest part, it's the least amount of things, either of all the things that you need to talk on your website, it's very little about what you do. It's much more about the problem you solve and how you convert that problem into unique value. Yeah, so that's what we're working on. So your homework was to do more of your ideal client archetype. And really dial in and those are listening in, I have another podcast on the five things that you're need to look out for your ideal arc aren't your ideal client archetype. But tell me about where you're at now? And what are you starting to identify? Like? Who is the client? Who's the person who's going to hire you? It's not going to be the manager themselves likely? Or is it gonna be somebody else in the organization,
Kamaria Scott 12:46
it's gonna be someone else. And so interestingly enough, so I have and what I really loved about sort of working through these activities, and I promise you, if you're watching, she didn't, like pay me to say glowing things about this, it's really great. Is that you gave me like, all the step by step things. And even when my brain was going to, oh, it's this person. There was a little note in there there was like, is it that person? Or is the buyer and I was like, Okay, it's typically the buyer. So what I realized and working through my idea client architect, it is typically going to be someone who is a director or senior level in HR. And I, so I do have a question for you. Because I had, I had to in my mind, so I'm excited to be able to ask you, if I'm right or wrong on this, they are going to be someone who is probably in their 40s. They are going to be someone who is probably not a visionary, but they're going to be more of a sage or a warrior, meaning they're either going to be somebody who was very good at sort of like orchestrating the steps that need to happen to make something take place, or they're going to be like a decision making person who's like, I need to get it done, I need to see an outcome. And they're gonna need me as a visionary to give them this is kind of the Northstar of what you're trying to get to and to really partner with them to be able to get to what they're bringing into bringing what they want to bring to fruition. So their strengths are going to be the other of their their weaknesses are going to be they're typically somebody who really wants to adhere to the project plan. But sometimes we've always worked. We've all worked with people who like our excellent project managers, but you're like, Yeah, but that thing that your project managing is not going to be impactful. Or then the person that's like, let's just do something, let's capture low hanging fruit. So the relationship is somebody who worked with someone like me, is someone who's going to help make sure that what they're doing has impact, but they want to participate. They want to own it, and they want to be able to bring it to life, but they need the reassurance or guidance and the push to maybe think of it differently or to be challenged to try a different solution. So
Betsy Jordyn 14:48
depends on the size organization and you're aware, like the size organization that you're in and how big like if you're talking about we're talking about a larger or organization, I think some of the things is you're sort of mixing potentially the operations later. So if you are working, so if you're talking about management training, you know, the likelihood is that you're probably working with an organization that has a decent frontline. Is that accurate?
Kamaria Scott 15:15
So, no.
Betsy Jordyn 15:16
Okay, so
Kamaria Scott 15:17
they don't, and I'm gonna tell it, and I'm gonna tell you why it's expensive, what we say about decent front line, right? Because
Betsy Jordyn 15:22
let's back up the backup, then what size organization? Are we talking about? Are we talking about a company that's in startup mode, you know, like a scrappy startup, and they never really had management in the first place? And then moving into that growing? Are you talking about like, um, you know, the company that's like, you know, been on the maturing path, or the ones who are at like, at a Disney level and revitalizing and they just need to get consistency? Yes,
Kamaria Scott 15:47
no. So I, so we are talking about someone who is like, right in that sweet spot of past startup, entering growing. So they're right at that stage where they're realizing that we have been scrappy, and doing all the things, but now if we're going to continue to grow, we have to get some structure around what it is we are doing and how we are now organizing ourselves to be successful.
Betsy Jordyn 16:12
So the management, so this is the first time they're really stratifying their levels and management's the first time. So then, okay, so then a director of HR who typically at that point, because usually in the small start up to moving in, usually HR sort of emerges out of like somebody who was sort of like that Admony kind of role, you know, where you had like finance and it all smushed together into a role. And then HR starts to emerge. So you're dealing with also a new, a new HR is a new function as management a new function in the organization. So then what you're saying does make sense, okay,
Kamaria Scott 16:49
yes, they both so purposely, and I don't, I don't know if I should like jump to it, like I actually did one of my got to the end of the assignment or walk you through it. But specifically, I find that because you said in your assignment, who you enjoy working with, who do you want to work with. And I find that in this work that I do, when you are starting from a blank slate, when you're starting with an organization that is growing, and they want to get it right the first time, because by the time you get to enterprise level, right, or by the time you get to really mature, the organization is already had all kinds of bad habits and chaos. And so really, and truly, I am working with people that are like we are positioned for ambitious growth from being kind of a smaller organization, and we want to make sure that we have the right leadership culture to take us to the next level. So yeah, right.
Betsy Jordyn 17:43
Because yeah, that's really good. Yeah. So you so you are, so your ideal client that you're targeting is definitely somebody in HR, who's tasked with that. And what you want to do is, don't grow your your, the problem that you're solving is they never really had management the first time, you know, like, they haven't had it, it's like the Wild West, everybody's doing things differently. And you want to help them start it stood up their their management structure right the first time without all the bad habits. That's
Kamaria Scott 18:14
exactly right. And so part of that, you know, and this is where I looked at the avatar part, I had to, like, really think about it because in my head, so in the assignment, right, you'd make the list of like, oh, who have you worked with, but in most of my career, I've had a dotted line into both HR and operations. And so the people who I have worked with, while maybe HR brought me in, the people who really benefited and wanted to work with me was operations, because there's this balance between what HR wants, and what operations will actually have people do. So when you're building out the culture, of even leadership, it can't be with your HR hat, it has to be with your operation hat, you have to kind of go and understand the business. So I did have a little bit of a hard time there saying, Well, do I have two avatars? Or do I have one avatar? Because even if the business is hiring you there, it's probably literally their HR VP, who's going to bring you to the operations manager. So I did have a bit of a hard time trying to figure out, did I really have one avatar? Did I have two avatars?
Betsy Jordyn 19:19
Like you're you're dealing with, like, who's the buyer? And how do I get to the buyer versus the sponsor of the work? I think that you're you're talking to, you're talking to the the likeliest buyer on your website, like the person who's likely to hire you and bring you in, you know, so if HR is tasked with the management, development, and they're making sure, then your job is to make that person the hero, you know, in the organization, they're tasked with it, like if I go in, at when I in my olden days when I was an OD consultant, you know, I'm definitely helping, you know, from org design standpoint, the entire organization is structuring it. I'm definitely trying to, it's the president who has the overall responsibility But HR is bringing him in. And so HR is my best friend. So the one thing that I always hate that I got this really horrible advice from an old mentor that I had years ago. And he would always say like HR is a gatekeeper, you need to leapfrog over gate, the gatekeeper. Um, like if you're in the, if you're in the leadership development, HR development, you know, OD space, and you leapfrog over the HR organization, they're the ones who are going to sustain it after we leave. So the likelihood that the operations team is going to sustain whatever you do is not as high as HR sustaining it and leading it to the culture. So that's why I would lean a little bit more, and I would make HR my best friend, and my partner in supporting the operations leader, but you're looking at all the other business lines, just because operations tends to hold the bulk of the management doesn't mean that there's not managers, and finance managers, and IT managers and marketing. So I would probably say like, who's the most likely buyer, and who's going to be there later on after you leave. So that's a good point, I
Kamaria Scott 21:01
hadn't thought about who's going to be there. After I leave, I landed on HR, just because in most of the conversations that I have had, the person who came to seek me out was the HR person, it was not the operations person. So it was I was on the fence about like, which one is it, but I landed on, I landed on HR.
Betsy Jordyn 21:21
So let's talk a little bit about like, so now you have this passion for starting these small companies moving into this next level, you know, with building a strong manager bench and a manager culture, not necessarily the executive leadership, we're talking about managers. What would you say? Would you say outside of that as a positioning that's different? Like what where are these people going today, to solve this problem, when they should be coming to you, like pretend the thing to do the ideal client and do the market scan properly. The one thing I will tell tell you and tell others is you have to imagine anytime you're doing the ideal client archetype, you have to picture it's like, you know, like an a, in a police station, you know that there's like that two way mirror, somebody's in the room and you're outside of it, you have to just like look in there and see what you observe. Anytime you try to insert yourself and go into the room, you're going to lead the witness and you're going to want you're going to define the avatar to be based on you rather than you meeting them where they're at. So what I want you to do is like, take a look at this particular HR leader in these small, growing companies, and you're observing the choices that they're making to solve the problem when Gosh, you wish that they knew about you? What are they doing today? Like, what are they doing on their own to fix it? Well,
Kamaria Scott 22:38
so I think they are finding readymades solutions to train managers. So I think what they're doing is they might go to Gosh, and I don't I can't name specific vendors, but I have I have colleagues who are my avatar, who were like, I just got certified to facilitate this training for my for my people. Or you might see them, you know, pick some of the ones that we know, are familiar like this, or, or, or situational leadership or strengths. So you might see them piecemealing it together from vendors out there that they're familiar with, they're going to be needing some things internally.
Betsy Jordyn 23:26
So let's stop for a second there. Let's talk about their buying off the shelf programs and certifications and assessments. What what is good about it, and where is it falling short for them? Yeah.
Kamaria Scott 23:37
So what's good about it is they are getting something that they're familiar with, they sort of know what it is. And so it's giving them a ready made solution. And a lot of times to this point, they are a small team. So they may not be a team of one, but they're probably not bigger than a team of like three or four. Maybe I think I spoke to someone who had like eight people in HR altogether, right? So they definitely what's good is that if you are someone who is starting from scratch, you do need a ready made solution, you need something that's going to not be hard, you don't have a lot of lead design time. And so you want something it's going to be easy for you to implement where it falls short, over and over again, is the now what of it all? So I think part of the issue is they're solving for one thing, which is that they think it's skill development. And as you said, training is sufficient, but it's not
Betsy Jordyn 24:38
often necessary, rarely sufficient. Oh, my mantras.
Kamaria Scott 24:42
Yes, yeah, it's often necessary. It's not sufficient. And so so the problem that they're solving for us, we gave our we gave the organization something, right. That's what they're doing. The thing is, once you deliver the training, it's not sustainable. Meaning like you can't coach your people. It goes right back to the wild west. With immediately after training, and so,
Betsy Jordyn 25:03
so good. So without that, that that's a gap. What are the other gaps, so it's not so it's, it hits a part of it but it's not sustainable doesn't have a comprehensive solution, it doesn't really create the baby behavior change. It doesn't and
Kamaria Scott 25:17
you can't you can't teach cross training to it because everyone's doing their own thing. And I think a lot of times, what happens is, there's a lack of ability to even figure out how to translate that skill to the right action. So I'll give you an example. I have worked for several organizations and I love let me just say, I love strengths as a philosophy, I love it as a product. But where time and time again, I have seen people struggle is they don't know how to take that assessment, and actually turn it into high performing teams, they can put it on a background and say like, these are my top five, they can put it in their signatures. But internally, they may not have the expertise that says, here's what you do post assessment to turn this into actual cultural behavior in your organization. And so even though you're getting familiar products, the actual expertise to how to maximize that product that organizations don't have, okay,
Betsy Jordyn 26:16
so we're still we're in the middle of our market scan here, what we're doing here for those who are listening, what we're doing, and why I'm, I'm interrupting her and pushing her is we already have one option of like in the market is people go to off the shelf type of thing, StrengthsFinder desk, other ready made things, the good thing is you could do something to get things moving. Downside is, you really don't know how to implement it, it doesn't translate to behavior change and culture. So what's another thing that people are going to is there other learning and development management leadership code consultants and coaches that they're going to instead of you
Kamaria Scott 26:51
the plethora of lead on leadership development, and management is not unique in and of itself? So there are a plethora of other vendors they could use.
Betsy Jordyn 27:03
You're not a vendor, FYI.
Kamaria Scott 27:07
Either not your thing. Could you? Oh,
Betsy Jordyn 27:10
but what are what are the other? What is your competition? Do? Well, and where's it? Where's the gaps? Like, what's missing?
Kamaria Scott 27:16
Well, I think some of it, I think that they do well is having visibility, honestly, I mean, like that is the when you are when you're entering a market that's already saturated, even the fact of having visibility and having things for people, okay, from
Betsy Jordyn 27:32
the clients perspective, what do they do? So I'm in the wild, wild west, I'm trying to build my management bench. The first time I'm trying to build my management bench, I've never done it before, I'm relatively new to HR. One option is is I might go to buy go to a vendor and buy an off the shelf program or that kind of thing. The other thing I might do is I might hire a consultant, you know, another consultant? What are other consultants who help them solve that problem? What did they do really well? And where is it? Where's it missing for them?
Kamaria Scott 28:04
Hmm, what do you baby really? Well. I think I think there might be consultants who are really honed into the specifics of their business. Who is the hardest one, Betsy?
Betsy Jordyn 28:28
Well, okay, we're not evaluating other competitors as it relates to their branding, marketing, and all of that we're comparing it relative to the solution. So I could say that, you know, in my experience of, you know, working with other consultants, you know, a majority of them don't really care about the management, they want to get to the executive leadership. So they're really good with the senior leadership, executive leadership. And what's missing is really a focus. You mentioned with your podcasts that there's a lot of people who talk about talk to around about managers, but nobody really goes to the managers like, to me understanding that gap in the marketplace, like your number one, like if we're getting to, ultimately your positioning strategy and how your unique is you see, you go to the managers, universities, other people who just want to skip over the managers or undervalue the task of being a people manager rather than a people leader. You know, like, there's, like, I mean, we can go on and on from a marketing standpoint. Yeah, everybody talks, everybody talks about management versus leadership, and they make it seem like if you're a manager, you're just like nothing, you know, you should aspire to be a leader, you know, rather than it's like, well, I mean, I just watched the Superbowl I think that the managers, you know, the coaches on the ground, were kind of important, not just the executives who own the ballclub, you know, there's so that would be a big gap that in the marketplace that you're filling. Yeah,
Kamaria Scott 29:53
so in terms like what other people do well, I mean, I do think people address executive leadership and coaching Doing very well. And they provide services that I think help executives do their jobs better. And again, I think there are people that offer very good training for managers as well. So I don't want to, like I don't want to make it seem like no one else. Trains managers, there's tons of people offering training, offering training for managers. And I think so the skill development for people leaders and for managers, I think other vendors do that. Well, there are vendors that do that. Well, they're not vendors, partners that do that, well.
Betsy Jordyn 30:35
Vendors, if you buy something off the shelf, you know, somebody who comes into an organization and does some training is not a vendor. Yeah. So
Kamaria Scott 30:43
okay, so I think they're okay, I'll go with that.
Betsy Jordyn 30:48
I'm sorry, I have to I feel like I have to mentor all of them. And like, you know, it's like, stop under, stop undervaluing yourself, you're not a vendor? Yeah,
Kamaria Scott 30:55
I think from from the inside part, we look at them as vendors, like when your internal, their vendor, but I get what you're saying. And so there are partners, solution providers who do provide training on specific skills, and they do that well. And then people don't focus on senior leaders very well. There's an abundance people in that space.
Betsy Jordyn 31:20
So one differentiation, like an overarching differentiation is this i from from the manager standpoint is unique. The other thing is that you talked about the sustainability is that you're not just about like the training, but you actually helped create the behavior change and create embedded in the culture. Is there, where else? Are they going to for help? Are they? Are they listening to books? I mean, listening to books, are the reading books, are they listening to audiobooks? Are they listening to podcasts? Is it on webinars? Like what are they? What else are they doing? Well, I
Kamaria Scott 31:55
think they might be going to webinars, I think there's a there's an abundance of especially for HR leaders, there's an abundance of communities for HR leaders and webinars being provided. So I think, I think there are a lot of conversations and even and even, you know, peer communities for them to hear what each other so they're going to each other to ask, what are you doing? How are you tackling these problems? How are you addressing, you know, people leader, Performance Manager performance, but I'll tell you, and I mean, I could be wrong about this, because I have been a part of a lot of HR communities. And I don't know that the conversation is, has traditionally been as a whole, how are we supporting and enabling our people leaders, I think it's honestly been a foregone thought, a lot of the times, and just now is a conversation that's starting to come up more and more. As you know, we going back to what people do well, people do measurement really well. Gallup has, if you look at any Gallup data, or any employee engagement data, for years, pop the pop the data has said that managers are the most disengaged population and who have the highest level of burnout. And it's kind of like we heard it, but we didn't hear it. And so now I think people are sort of tuning into it. But I don't necessarily hear bespoke conversations about how are you caring for your manager populations, they can be popping up more frequently, but I haven't heard them a lot.
Betsy Jordyn 33:29
The bespoke is important, is it's not really customized, and it's not really as focused like from the manager engagement, I'll tell you my experience as a an OD consultant, the the hardest hardest groups, the ones that I always felt like our grief groups is talking to the managers, because, you know, they feel all this responsibility and all this pressure for employee engagement, 99% of the time, their hands are tied, you know, they don't have the resources, they're not staffed up properly, they're doing 1000 different things, you know, and, you know, the managers could just get, like, you know, cut out at well, you know, randomly so now they've got like this huge, you know, huge group that they have to oversee. And on top of it, you know, it's like, well, you know, don't be a manager, you gotta be a leader, they got all that other extra pressure. And they are the overlooked, you know, overlook unsung heroes in the organization. So I think that there is something about what you're saying. So if we're talking about moving into the second part of the branding work, moving from the ideal client to the market scan, the things that you provide that might be different is maybe a holistic solution, you know, for managers, that empowers their both their performance and their engagement at the same time. Yeah. So it's not just about like, maybe like, maybe when we get to the value and your value proposition is yeah, we're gonna get the consistency that you want. Like I could almost see when you start writing copy, like, Yeah, sure. When you work with me, I'm going to help you so stabilize and build your management bench for the first time in the for the first time, you know, no foul starts, no mistakes, no bad habits, you know, but also, through working with me, I'm also going to create the conditions for your managers to feel empowered and engage, they will stay with your organization longer and help build your culture as your company grows.
Kamaria Scott 35:24
I mean, we could just stop right now.
Betsy Jordyn 35:28
Because but that's how you're different is it's you give custom solutions to their organizations and assure they have a management bench that will propel their growth to the next phase. Yes, yes,
Kamaria Scott 35:40
I mean that. And that's really what it is. Because I think that, you know, and I until what's difficult about being able to articulate that is, you see it for I, you, me, I see it from the solution side. And you have to learn to talk to it the way that you just did. So if someone were to talk to me, I'd rattle off all about the solution, how I can help them. But I might skip over the very nice concise way that you said it, and it took me hours to get close to what you just said. So naturally. So I think that's why going through the steps is really helpful. Because I'll tell you who's here. So if I can tell you what I where I landed. Okay, now again, it's it's not perfect, but it's it's sort of close. So I said, I work with forward thinking small to midsize businesses that have ambitious growth goals, but don't have the leadership culture to execute their strategies. So it's as great as yours I know, I know, I know, right?
Betsy Jordyn 36:40
No, you don't you went you go from this is we have this conversation, you go from clarity to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, what everybody else is saying. So you know, when you have organizations that are trying to grow the startup, scrappy organizations that have all of this potential for growth, and they're hiring their managers for the first time, and it's like the wild, wild west, everybody's doing it differently. And they don't know how to do it. And they're investing in all these solutions that are kind of one off, but it's not really creating that consistency that they're looking for. What I do is I create bespoke management, development solutions that not only create consistency with the managers, it also creates the conditions for engagement and the foundations for a culture that you can grow on. Like, that's what you're talking about. I don't want to talk about like, blah, blah, blah, leadership development, you're using, like these jargony words, yes, there's all jargon, you gotta get away from it. You just like, record yourself, you know, from that. The other thing I bring up to you if you're dealing with smaller growing companies, and this goes back to another client that I worked with, who was caretaking? Who was looking at helping companies scale, you know, like, their whole vision was the scale on sale. So I did a bunch of research on, you know, what is it that you know, investors are looking for, and what are buyers looking for, and the biggest thing that they talked about, besides like, being able to have like, a really good, you know, financial picture, and, you know, and all of that kind of stuff, they look for the business underneath the business. And a big part of the business underneath the business is the management bench. So if you're talking to companies that really want to scale, and they're looking for investors, or they're looking to sell, sell, at some point, they have to build a business underneath the business. And one of the things that, you know, doing the research, I don't have this from personal experience, because that's not I worked with the larger companies on that didn't never know, they were not going to sell. But, you know, just if you are looking for that, I would also do some research to figure out like, Okay, how does, how does this play in the business underneath the business, you know, and building the management capabilities, because if you're in that small growing phase, you know, these entrepreneurs, they the way that the entrepreneurs have to shift their perspective is, you know, when they're in the startup, scrappy mode, you know, they're entrepreneurs, you know, then they move into business owners, then they move into business leaders, and they move into executive like the top person at the top, if they understand the role of the managers, as the people, leaders that will force them to elevate their perspective. And you play a key role in the business underneath the business. So you could also, I would just do a little bit more research before you put a bow on your brand positioning, as part of what you would say is the value, like I'm going to help you build this company. You know, that's built on the strong foundation, you know, building it from here, because, you know, and talking about it from that standpoint, I don't know if that makes sense. No,
Kamaria Scott 39:39
it absolutely does. I think that is, you know, part of it and I hadn't, you know, I went back and forth between whether or not like people who were scaling to sell is the right client, only because I'm not quite sure that that's But the priority is there. And so even in sort of thinking about like, well, what does it look like? Like, who are the people that I have traditionally helped that are smaller? They were growing, but they weren't like startup tech companies that are just basically like, How can I scale to a point and then spin it off, and try to keep everything as lean as I can until somebody buys it. So yeah, more research in that area.
Betsy Jordyn 40:28
So it's these companies that really have their sights set on the scalable, the scalable success, the sustainable success. So they're moving out of this scrappy startup mode, they got their sights set on scalable success. And therefore, when they are hiring, their management, you know, or they're really developing the management, they want to do it right the first time right now, it's the wild wild west. So as, as we kind of like wrap up, what we've been talking about, here's like, a few tips that I would probably say, is, I think for for you, and maybe others, like you, you know, you really do know what you want to do, and why you want to do it. But there's this weird translation that happens is that you go in your head, and so somewhere from here to here, or here, is it goes into some sort of gobbly gook of, you know, like corporate lingo, you know, and it's like, I gotta sell myself, what I would suggest is like, stick with your initial, like, if you're just talking, just talking off the cuff, you know, like, record yourself when you're chit chatting with people, you know, and it's like, you know, it's like the Wild Wild West, like, that should be on your website, you know, like, I could see it, you know, you're interested in story brand, you know, story brand, there's a section like you start off with a pain identifier, it does developing your management, talent, your art, or growing your management bench, does it feel like the Wild Wild West, everybody's doing things differently? You know, and, you know, you've tried the disc tests, you know, and you've bought things off the shelf, and it's had some, you know, it had some success, you needed it, because you didn't have a lot of time, but you're just not seeing the behavior change, you know, and you're not seeing it develop into the culture that you envision, hi, I get it, I've Hi, I'm, I'm Kamaria, and I'm here to help. You know, I'm your management whisperer, I'm going to be the builder of your management bench. And I'm here to help you not just develop a training program, but implement a development solution that helps you build your management bench, the right the first time, you know, work with me, and I will help you, you know, maximize your time and money. And I'm going to do all of this while making you the hero of the organization, because this is an HR person, you know, I'm your I'm your person, I'm your management whisperer. You know, like that kind of stuff like that, like that starts playing itself out. So thing number one is, own what you really want your business to be about and don't buy into the scarcity mentality, you had set on the conversation the other day, that a lot of people say, Well, you know, you have so many other things to do. And it's like, okay, well, I should add culture and this and that, well, yeah, you can, when you get there to pay attention to when you're trying to educate your audience, and when you're supposed to educate your audience, and it's not in marketing. And sometimes it's not even in sales, like as an OD consultant. I know, like the, you know, organizational systems model is, you know, the way I think I didn't introduce an organizational systems model until I got well into the assessment, you know, like, where it fit into my overall process was not on marketing. And it was not on my proposal. And it was not even when I was doing meet and greets with the executives. And during my initial stakeholder, it was it's when I introduced the systems model is when I did a report out after I did the assessment, and said, Well, here's the here's the standard that I evaluated your organization against FYI, you know, just like you go to the doctor, and the doctor doesn't immediately say, Well, let me tell you everything about anatomy, right, you know, like, like, why, like, Oh, here's every aspect of the human body, you know, you need the cardiovascular system to work well with the muscular system, you'd be like, blah, blah, blah, you know, I have a cold, you know, I mean, you know, that's what you're, so you've got to do things at the right places. The second is, you've got to get into a habit, all of us do, is where we turn off the internal editor, you know, like, the best way is just like start like freehand if you're writing website, copy, talk into a go for a walk, but just but then you know, but be careful that you're not going to do it or just scribble it like Dude, get a journal out and freehand it. Write a letter Dear so and so ideal client, are you struggling with X, Y and Z? You know, and just say it the way that you say it, you say it beautifully. You have manager to manager. The reason why the end the reason why Lee resonates so much with you is that his sweet spot managers, Lee's doesn't say this all the time. But the that manager that customer, that best spot between the customer and the employee and the manager that's his sweet spot. What you resonate with him?
Kamaria Scott 45:01
Yes, that probably is. And I know, that's good advice. I think what ends up happening with those of us who are shifting is that and I think you, you say it in your podcast, right? We speak corporate, we've spoken corporate, for 20 years. And so putting on your marketing hat, or trying to change the language, or even taking that thing that you do very naturally, and trying to wrap a business around it is a different set of skills, this, that we are still sort of learning to master along the way. Because before you kind of built the product, you built the solution. And it was in demand, so you didn't have to mark it. You just kind of showed up to where the broken things were. And people were like, yes, come help me.
Betsy Jordyn 45:46
So it is
Kamaria Scott 45:47
kind of now wrap your brain around. Even that there is a process to this, and you want it like want it to feel organic. But you do have to know to your point, when do you have this conversation when you do us have this conversation? Because you're if I was doing it internally, and that's where my wild wild west analogy came from was being internal and being like, Okay, we just bought two things. It's like the wild wild west in here, like, wherever they came from, they're doing their thing, and there's no alignment. And so translating that to maybe in a statement to it's now it's a question, is it like the wild wild west in your organization? Let's, let's fix that. So I think there's a there's a, there's a learning curve to being able to make it come out naturally and to switch your brain from solution to casual consultation?
Betsy Jordyn 46:45
Well, I would say it's a I think there's a learning curve, but I think it's really more of an unlearning curve. Yeah, that, that, like, you know how to talk. I mean, if you and I were having coffee, you wouldn't use the, you know, you wouldn't use the jargon, you just talk to me. You know, like, if you were talking to the manager, you know, or you were talking to someone, you wouldn't use that language. So people keep asking, they asked all the time, like, how do I find my voice? Like, your voice is there, you just have to stop using other people's voices. You know, that's, that's what you have to stop doing is you can't you can't picture like, I mean, there's all that corporate is like, for a long time, I thought it would be fun to make a game called like, I called it lingo. And I'm like, I'm going to, like, I was gonna make a little bingo game. And it's like, in a little square, it's like, to your point, you know, we need to have all of those phrases. And then like, you know, and then people could have it, and then they could play it while they're in the meetings, like, let go, like corporate lingo. So it's just a matter of like, but nobody really naturally is born to speak corporate lingo. You're just like, you learn how to do that. But if you were writing an email to your partner, you wouldn't say, you know, are you looking to synergize our opportunities for the future? You know, and you want to go on a date? Let's go to dinner. You know, and that's the the best marketing copy is just conversational. Just write how you talk and how you talk. Like I could tell when you're like an, you know, in alignment with yourself.
Kamaria Scott 48:18
Yeah. Well, I will, I will keep working on getting rid of lingo and talking how I talk. Because yeah, I think again, I know it in the moment, if you ask me a question. I think that's the hard part. If you if you've asked me a question, I can answer your question. If you ask me to position it, I get all like, so it is it is it is unlearning. But I'm gonna keep doing my homework assignments and keep talking it through until I get there. But I will say even if I can't necessarily say it out loud, casually, I think it was still very helpful for me to go through the activities to get clarity on Who am I helping? What do I help them with? What's the context of what I help them with? Because for the longest time, people would be like, well, who you know, like, who are your customers like, like everybody, right? And it's not everybody. So I know that I think being able to say it fluidly is the last step, being able to have it in your mind. So you know it and understand it is a large benefit from going through this. And then once you in your head, you can kind of walk around and play around with it once you get it. But even that bit of clarity, I think I found really helpful. Wow,
Betsy Jordyn 49:29
that is awesome. And I have additional homework for you as we when we are in preparation for our next session. I want to drop it just 111 level down. So we know that you want to help manage or you want to help HR new HR leaders in growing companies or going from startup to growing and you really want to help them build their management bench. They could do it the right the first time. Why do you care about it? Like don't answer it now that future He's let me ask you, I know why. Okay.
Kamaria Scott 50:03
So a story that I tell people all the time is way back in the day. I used to work for AOL. And I'm talking like dial up AOL like 1997. So it for those of us who remember that time period, they actually went from like the hourly plan to the unlimited plan. And I was I was, I was 18. And I was working in their call center, and I was a college freshman. And literally overnight, it exploded, right. And I tell people, it was like, it was like, the best of times, it was the worst of times, right? Because it was like, miserable. If you're working at a call center, it was like back to back calls, we had unlimited overtime, they were like, listen, we don't care what you're wearing, they just get in here, right. But it was also one of the most fun times in my life, because our managers would like walk up and down the aisle with these literal carts like comfort cards that had like soda and pizza and koozies. And you would have cones, you could put them on top of your desk, or you could I am them. But there was this sense of we right, we are all in this together. And so as I was sort of doing my homework and gathering my stories, I've always told that story. And I and I thought it was like the impetus of why I love employee engagement so much. But it was like in my mind, the archetype of an organization that was going through tremendous growth, that literally had managers who were there to help their employees. And that has been the imprint in my brain that like growth and change, inherently kind of suck. But when you have the right people, leaders, the right managers, they are there to help people get through it. And the organization in and of itself thrives. So that has always stuck with me stuck with me since I was 18. It's why I became an IO psychologist. And it's why I try to help people now.
Betsy Jordyn 51:56
Okay, so here's what's beautiful about what we are doing here is you just wrote your about page chose to so we have your about page just about written, because that was really compelling. That was beautiful. And that's the stuff that it's like the why, like you see it and you know it you are part of an organization that was like on the cusp of this and these things made a huge difference. That is your about story. Yeah. So now this is why you do what you do. And that it would that's why you got your degrees. And now you're this is what your business is about. This is the through line. And the reason why this is so important. And and I'm going to end on this quote that I use all the time with my mentees, especially the people who don't love marketing and are terrified of marketing. And they're nervous about just getting out there and finding people. And here's why this is so important. Even writing website copy putting their picture on the website is it's a quote from Audrey Lorde, who's a poet who says when I dare to be powerful, she says, when a dare to be powerful when I use my strengths and service of my vision and matters less and less, whether I'm afraid. And the real power of what you're going through is tapping into this true self and your true authentic passion. And why you care. This is going to be what overcomes your humps, getting your website done investing properly in your business, getting out there marketing, putting a proposal together pricing yourself is this is who you have to go after this is why you have to go after them. So kudos to you. Any any comments or questions before we sign off on this on air coaching?
Kamaria Scott 53:33
Thank you for your support. I mean, I have worked with people on this process for a while. And I got further in my thinking and further in my clarity and understanding in the literal one conversation we had. And the three days of me doing my homework that I have working with a few other consultants. So I just want to thank you because you have a gift for what you're doing. And and you make it very easy for people to kind of translate what they're trying to say and to get there. So
Betsy Jordyn 54:07
Oh, thank you for saying that. And thank you all for participating in my very first on air coaching session. Thank you for being on the show. And if anybody wants to be, you know, just my, I guess what are your guinea pig or what are you for my show? If you want to be on the hot seat with me and let me do some on air coaching with you, we could work on your brand messaging or if you want someone to help you frame up your offers. That would be a fun on air coaching as well. So I don't know whatever you all want to do. So anyway, so that is it for today. Thank you all for listening, and I'll see you all next time.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
