0:00:00 - Betsy Jordyn
So, as a narcissist or just a jerk, find out on this episode of the Enough Already podcast. And welcome to the Enough Already podcast. This is the show for consultants and coaches who want to forge their own pasts of success in their careers and their lives. I'm your host, betsy Jordan, I am a personal branding mentor and I'm a messaging strategist and I am so excited to bring on the show Chuck de Groot. So I need to confess something to you all. You all think that I have left Disney to start my own business and that was my trajectory, but that's not necessarily true.
I happened to go to seminary in between those two things and my absolute favorite professor of all time was Chuck, and Chuck was so interesting. We had many classes together where he taught me about the inner, the intersection between psychology and theology, and we explored the world of the Christian mystics and had many, many, many conversations about our shared passion for transformation and the hero's journey. And he does so many different things. So he's a therapist, he has soul care intensives and he's an author and he's an expert on narcissism, which is a major issue that we face as consultants and coaches, especially when we're dealing with narcissism in the C-suite and the senior position. So he has a whole book on how to deal with that and he's an expert on trauma and so many other things. So I'm so excited to have him on the show and I'm just gonna. I could keep going on and on and on about gushing about him, so I'm not gonna do that anymore. So just welcome to the show, chuck. I'm so thrilled to have you here.
0:01:35 - Chuck DeGroat
Yeah, it's so good. It's been what? 20 years or so since we saw each other last.
0:01:40 - Betsy Jordyn
It seems like that. I think it was like 2008 or seven or something along those lines.
0:01:47 - Chuck DeGroat
We're getting there. We're climbing up there to 20 years and we you and I both experienced so much in those years and it probably changed so much. But it's so good to see you. I'm a lot more gray than you saw me last time.
0:02:00 - Betsy Jordyn
Well, that's because you're a dude. Underneath this hair you would see all my gray. At least I got color I have the opportunity.
So there's so many things I want to explore with you on the show, but I really want to talk about narcissism at the beginning, just because this is such a hot topic. People are talking about narcissism left and right all the time. You see it on social media, and anytime somebody's sort of self-centered, they're like, ah, you're a narcissist. If somebody's an influencer and they take a selfie, it's like, ah, you're a narcissist. But I'm thinking that there's something more to narcissism. So tell me a little bit about what is narcissism and how is it different than just someone being a jerk?
0:02:41 - Chuck DeGroat
Yeah, well, it's such a good question and you know, we typically in my world, in the therapeutic world, go immediately to the DSM-5, you know, which is the kind of the Bible for psychologists, where you'll find things like entitlement and attention seeking, grandiosity, a lack of empathy, and I think those things are helpful. But you know my work with narcissists. Over the years I've and I've written on this I've seen different shades of narcissism, what I call the many faces of narcissism. What I just described in entitlement, attention seeking, grandiosity, lack of empathy really centers more on that classic, grandiose narcissist that people are so familiar with the political leaders, the celebrities that are sort of out and about front facing on stage, look at me. But narcissism is a lot more complicated than that. There are the more outward facing narcissists, but there are narcissists that are maybe even a bit more introverted and self-denying, and so it's.
I came up with something called the nine faces of narcissism using the enneagram. I don't know how familiar your listeners are with the enneagram. I'm sure some are and others might say what kind of? Is that? The horoscope? What was he talking about here? But it's been important for me over the years to look at it through the lens of nine different ways that narcissists can show up in the world.
0:04:14 - Betsy Jordyn
So you're talking, so then we I did have an episode on the enneagram, so for those who are listening, you can go back, and I did an episode on the enneagram with Sarah Wallace last year. So what you're saying is it's like, based on your enneagram type, it could be a different flavor of narcissism, if you will. So if you're like a one who's more of a perfectionist, your narcissism will look different than a two who's more of a codependent.
0:04:39 - Chuck DeGroat
Yeah, yeah. So think about it for a moment. I think you just named it. I mean there's there's the kind of lawyerly perfectionism of the one right, which might not be quite as attention seeking or might not look like the sort of the success drivenness of a three. There's the intellectualism of the five, the kind of the kind of stodgy, distant, disconnected guy in his head. That's what I picture, you know, I picture I picture couples I've seen in marital counseling where he's sitting there next to her taking notes on a, you know, on a pad or something like that, just completely disconnected, and up in his head there's the power and the grandiosity of the eight.
There's the kind of visionary idealism of the seven. There's kind of the introverted martyrdom that you might see in some fours. There's a very different look to some four. I'm a four so I know a little bit about that. We might not be as much on stage but we might be sort of behind the scenes, experience a bit of self pity because we are not on stage like someone else is. There's a deep kind of flavor of envy with the four, and yet we may be just as self-consumed, and so there, yeah, there are different looks to narcissism and I think that's what's important. It's not merely kind of the face of grandiosity.
0:06:03 - Betsy Jordyn
So what's the difference between? You know we're talking about the enneagrams, so the enneagram what I really love about that tool is it talks about, like you know, here's your attributes and the light. Here's your attributes in the shadow you know or the areas. But is there something different with someone like, let's say, has a narcissistic personality disorder? That's not just somebody operating the shadow, but is there some other type of motivation that's driving it? That's a little different than you know. You're just not mature in this particular area.
0:06:35 - Chuck DeGroat
Yeah, I think it's the. In some ways it's the extent of the immaturity. There are a couple of early sort of Enneagram theorists who talked about not the nine types of the Enneagram but nine levels of development, from healthy development to radically unhealthy development. That was that was. I remember first seeing that back in 2000 or so and getting a sense of oh wow. This says a lot about human pathology and the different diagnoses that we see in the DSM, and I remember seeing some of those diagnoses there.
But in my work, particularly going all the way back to the late 90s with women who'd experienced emotional, spiritual abuse, sexual abuse and oftentimes narcissistic husbands, what I remember seeing was this dynamic showing up in each and every one of the numbers. So it is this sort of shadow side, this underdeveloped side of people, and what the Enneagram helps us understand is our story to some extent, how we are the way we are today because of the things that happen to us and how we internalize those things. And so each and every one of the Enneagram types reflects a different kind of persona or mask in the world, and the mask of, let's say, the Enneagram two, which a friend of mine calls the benevolent narcissist, looks a little bit different than the mask of the Enneagram six, which is more of the hyper vigilant and anxious, anxious, narcissist right, and so there is in a sense a different underbelly, but what we see in narcissism is a kind of the mask becomes the only self. They know if that would make sense to your listeners.
It's like when you, when you get to know them and you try to pursue something more, it's like they don't reveal anything more. Because it's like, well, this is me, and I know that that's not all of who they are. But they learned at a very early age the mask is the only side of me that I'm going to reveal to the world, because it's too painful to reveal the rest of me, and so they live in a kind of fortress. They're walled up, I'd say. In one sense, other parts of them are walled behind this persona that they live without in the world. That looks like, you know, the achievement drivenness of a three, or the visionary idealism of a seven, et cetera.
0:08:57 - Betsy Jordyn
So sounds like you're talking a little bit about internal family systems. You know where you said like the other parts are sort of like behind the gate, you know and this is in the front, so what happens to the other? So can you just explain, like the internal family systems, and how this all relates, like who's behind the gate and who's in front, like is this a protector or is this an exile, like who's? Just, I'll let you explain that.
0:09:21 - Chuck DeGroat
Yeah, yeah. So what you're saying is really important, and the reality is, is that there are parts of us that show up at different times in life, in certain circumstances, and there are other parts that are kind of hidden and behind the scenes. You know the part of me, that, the part of me that shows up, let's say now in my current work, at a faculty meeting. He's going to look a little bit more competent and put together. It's probably not going to be the, the, the me. You see me, the, the, the, the, the, the me that you'd see on, like a late Friday night, my pajama pants, you know, um, drinking a martini or something like that, right? And so there are different parts of us that show up in different ways.
Well, what ends up happening with narcissistic personality disorder is that there's, there's generally, generally, some sort of a profound wound, abuse, uh, early on in life that leads a person to unwittingly, um, choose to live out of a very guarded and protected part of themselves. We call that a protector and internal family systems and so the protector becomes the only version of themselves that they know and it's sort of like they leave behind more vulnerable parts of them, parts of them that carry sadness, shame, uh, fear, even anger, and so so part of my work uh, as I as I do this kind of counseling, is to invite them to see the complexity of who they are. There's much more, uh, there's shame underneath that we're going to have to take a look at, and, um, and and and work with for us, uh, for you, to become whole.
0:10:54 - Betsy Jordyn
So I think that it's important that you know, for people who are outside, it's like I like how you're bringing up, like the things that you do and understanding their story, but it's also like being on the other side, like people need to figure out like well, how do I navigate. You know, like when I think about like one of my absolute worst client situations so as a consultant, I landed, uh, I was working with a client and I knew that this was not going to be very good a very good engagement because just the way that he was negotiating with me, you know, demanding that I just reduce my prices and I don't, you know, I was earlier my career. I'm like fine, I'll do that, I'll never do that again. But there were all these signs like I knew he was going to be a horrible client and when I got into the work, he just undermined me at every single turn. You know, like he undermined me and gas lit me.
All the time is like oh, no, you said this. It's like no, we didn't, you know. Or there was all of this like confusing stuff and you saw the dynamic on the team, you know. So, like like there is something about like the compassion, but like, what are the signs like? Especially when you're dealing with the lack of empathy, the dominance, you know, and maybe they have their own little flavors of how they get there and the gas lighting like, how would you like if you're somebody working with that kind of person? So let's say that person's your boss, that person's in charge of your organization, what in the world do you do?
0:12:08 - Chuck DeGroat
Yeah, that's a good question. So I'm you know I was. I was teasing it out in a way that I might as a therapist when I'm trying to pursue kind of the depths of the story. But you know, if you're under someone like this say you're working a business and this is your CEO or the person you directly report to it's painful and chances are you're not probably not going to have the same kind of macro level perspective that I have or compassionate stance, and you probably don't need to either.
You know, if you're being impacted in a way that's harmful and abusive, the first thing that I tell people is it's really important for you to get your own care. Oftentimes people write to me all the time about this to say should I confront my boss, should I write a letter and email or something like that, and I'm like no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Just step back, because that's probably going to blow up. Why don't you get your own care first? Let's talk about how this is impacting you, and I work with people like this all the time. It's really important if you've been in any kind of abusive relationship and I've been in multiple abusive relationships and organizations.
I lost my first job because I confronted a narcissist and that had ramifications for other work and my reputation, and because I continue to be gaslit even after that. Now I know better and what it probably should have done was to step back and process this with someone who understood the dynamics of narcissism, understood maybe even some of the trauma that I was absorbing in my body. It's really important. You know, oftentimes when I do this work with people who are being harmed, abused, they'll say yeah, I get these headaches, I don't sleep at night, my stomach's constantly churning, I'm crying all its time, I don't want to get out of bed. Let's attend to that before we get to confronting the narcissist.
0:14:00 - Betsy Jordyn
Well, this is interesting. So I was going to ask you what are the signs to spot? How do you know there's a narcissist? And you mentioned that there's a lot of different flavors. But I wonder if the answer to the question is spot it within yourself. Are you not sleeping well? Are you feeling crazy? Are you like because you'll know if you're around somebody who's reasonable like you could have a conversation with somebody? You know that you're not, but maybe the signs are not what you see, but it's what you feel and what you experience that will tell you everything that you need to know if you're in the presence of a narcissist.
0:14:37 - Chuck DeGroat
That's so good, that's so important and what you're doing. I think, in saying that, that's like validating people who are experiencing these things. I think any one of us who know the experience of working for someone who's abusive knows some element of being cut off from our own bodies and emotions. Like we, we, we start to gaslight ourselves and we might even justify it I'm too sensitive, I'm making a big deal out of this. I shouldn't complain so much. It has nothing to do with him, it has everything to do with me. We do. We get cut off from our bodies and from our emotions, and so at least part of it is beginning to take some of the data that we're getting from our bodies seriously, and I we're talking beforehand about the great book the body keeps the score, a really important one. That I think has has helped us understand how trauma gets locked in our bodies, and so you're spot on, we've got to notice what's happening within us.
0:15:37 - Betsy Jordyn
You know, and I think about going back in time with that one particular client. Or you know, like I've been in narcissistic relationships, you know, and in a romantic standpoint, and the signs, like you could tell, like the signs were there, but it's just like you gaslight yourself out of it. It's like, well, you know, I want to believe the best, like with that particular client. I knew from the negotiation that this was not going to be somebody that respected me, you know, and it was somebody who was going to try to control it, but I didn't listen to myself. You know, and I think about every horrible client situation. Is it all started during the contracting situation? Yeah, all the signs were there when I was negotiating with them, but I just didn't trust it. Like, why do we talk? Why do we gaslight ourselves? Like, why do we talk ourselves out of what we see?
0:16:24 - Chuck DeGroat
Yeah, I mean that's I think that's what we need to tease out with our therapists when we start to do this work with a mentor, a friend, a spiritual director, someone who understands trauma really. And that oftentimes goes back to our own stories. I grew up in a home where my emotions weren't really seen, known, validated in particular kinds of ways, and so I, you know, I became an adult who wasn't in tune with what was happening within. It's not to blame my parents or anything like that, but I realized I was kind of set up for this, and so, as I began to pay attention, I was able to kind of shift from a posture of gaslighting myself to a posture of ouch, this hurts, this really really hurts, and okay. So now I need to decide.
What do I want to do about that? Well, first I want to begin to heal these wounds within, and then I may need to make a decision about whether or not I stay in the company or whether or not there is a process. Maybe there are other people and now you know there have been there have been, as you know, many different stories that have come out about small churches and large churches, let alone organizations and institutions in the religious world where there had been narcissistic leadership. And I remember talking to a group of people, a group of women in particular, who their stories went back decades, like they were saying to themselves like we literally have been in this for what? The longest was, I think, 27 years, and you know the tears that came with that, but also that shift from denying what they were experiencing and gaslighting themselves to no ouch. This really hurts and I will not allow this to continue to happen.
0:18:09 - Betsy Jordyn
I think the other part, though that makes it even more hard to validate though, is because the narcissist person has usually has a charismatic personality of some kind. Where they're like, everybody likes them, you know or the public persona is attractive, like I remember, like I did church consulting. So one of my early when I was a new consultant, I was consulting, actually with a couple different churches at the same time and one of them was a mega church and this pastor like was put up on this pedestal, like I couldn't walk with him from one side of the parking lot to the other without everyone's a pastor, pastor, pastor, pastor. And they elevated him like oh, he doesn't struggle like other people and it is not surprising. Like a few years later, you know, all kinds of stuff came out about him.
But it's like, I wonder sometimes, it's like this cult of celebrities like we put them up on the pedestal and then they start believing their PR, and now there's all these other people. And then you wonder like, well, what's wrong with me? Everybody else seems to love them, because they kind of surround themselves with this harem and it's this crazy making scenario. So I wonder like, what's the dynamic of like we treat our executives like somebody's in a CEO and it's like, oh, you can do no wrong and you know we worship them. And then we wonder why they believe the.
0:19:18 - Chuck DeGroat
PR. Yeah, yeah, there's a man named Gerald Post who did some writing on the dynamic between the narcissist and the follower and he said you know, the narcissist is mirror hungry. In other words, the audience becomes the mirror. You know, people in his life become the mirror, feed me, feed me, feed me, tell me what I need to hear. But the follower is ideal hungry.
Which is to say there are certain needs met for security, for belonging, for some sense of power amidst, maybe, some sense of disempowerment. And this is, by the way, not to in any way blame victims of narcissists, but it is for us, and I had to do this work. You know, it wasn't to say it was your fault, chuck, but it was to say there were particular needs that were being met for me when I had attached myself to a narcissistic leader. And the reality is is that sometimes we've seen this play out in any number of different situations across churches and organizations, corporations sometimes you begin to look like the narcissistic leader. And so I had to ask myself, you know, in my plugging into him for a sense of identity, belonging, security, power, purpose, how did I even begin to look like him? So it does involve some humbling work on ourselves.
0:20:37 - Betsy Jordyn
Well, and also to understand, like, what's the like, where those hooks are. Because, like, sometimes, like with some people you know who go into a work, situations like, well, that person's a you know kind of a jerk, narcissistic leader, I'm out of here, and then there's the other ones, like I could change him, you know, I'm going to work alongside, I'll give coaching, I'll, I'll, I'll confront him and that, like, those are two different dynamics, because one person has boundaries and the other person doesn't. And you got to explore, like, well, why is this so hard for you? Like I have to, I had to explore that for myself. Like, one of the things I recently discovered is I'm a, I'm a HSP, I'm a highly sensitive person and, oh, you are, oh, welcome.
0:21:16 - Chuck DeGroat
Yes, oh, yeah.
0:21:17 - Betsy Jordyn
I did, my whole life made sense. Like I need to do a whole podcast on this one. Like my whole life makes sense. Like I understand and I'm an INFJ and and as with my personality, I'm the most overrepresented to be in narcissistic relationships. Like, and now I see my entire consulting career trying to save these narcissistic leaders, one after the other. I'm like what was I? Like my whole dysfunction is like coming into light, you know where, like protecting myself was just not my thing. You know like learning how to get that second skin. So like what are some tips like? When you think about? Like not everybody's wired like you and I, but like what are tips that we have to guard ourselves into? Kind of like you know, grow that extra set of you know, I don't know the right word, because I wouldn't know?
0:22:08 - Chuck DeGroat
No, I hear that, and, as a fellow HSP and INFJ which is interesting right I've found myself in similar situations and and what I notice is, you know, just by way of what are tips, what? My question is what? What might you notice about what's happening within you as you're in relationship with someone who's narcissistic or you're, you're trying to fix or rescue? Think about the spouse who's married to a narcissistic husband and she's she's just wanting to do everything she can. I mean, I just want to see the best in him and I want to believe that he can be different and believe that he can be better. Well, I've done that as a therapist and a consultant, and what I begin to notice is that I deny really important needs in myself when I'm in that space and I get really exhausted and unhealthy and I feel it in my body. I literally become a shadow of myself, and so what you need to begin to notice is is your own on health, and, once again, it's important to have people in your life.
I remember, you know, being with a therapist in 2008, 2009, when I was beginning to make sense of this. The attention really turned from the narcissistic leader to what was happening within me and and and. For two years it was like we're going to solely focus on how to get you healthy, chuck, and so that's really hard when, when you're, you know when your proclivity like ours might be is to want to rescue, or where we feel our own sense of of like. Maybe there's a bit of grandiosity there too. I know there has been for me where it's like okay, well, I've been doing this for a while. For a while, I'm the one who can save this marriage, I'm the one who can get through to this narcissistic leader.
0:23:48 - Betsy Jordyn
Well, you know, like where I see it, like in my dysfunction, is what makes me really great as a personal branding person is all I see the idealism, I see the potential and, but I struggle with seeing the truth. Like when you know we talk a lot about like the downward journey, you know that you have to like die, to die to your fall self so the real self would rise, is like I go through this journey. It's like dying to this idealism like has been the hardest death of all is that like I can't live in my little Pollyanna bubble that everybody has great intentions. You know it now, everybody doesn't. You know, like you have to believe. It's like it's not about believing the best, it's about believing the truth and and being diligent about believing the truth.
And when the cognitive dissonance comes between you say this and you're acting like that and there's a disconnect.
You know, like my my go to is like well, obviously it's my fault that's creating this disconnect, or if I could just tell them this information in the best way, but some of it is is they don't really not everybody has like the best motives in the whole world and you kind of like have to operate in a place of like I'm going to be a faith and I'm going to be of, you know, of protection at the same time, not like the dysfunctional protection, but I'm going to protect my sensitive heart at all costs. It's a really hard place to get to. If you're especially like my audience, they're probably all similar. You know we're consultants and coaches. We're going to help people, we're helpers. We want to make a difference, you know. So how do we do like it doesn't just go back to the validation of just like? You know, I just live in this reality of it may not be this way, so I got to guard my heart at all costs.
0:25:23 - Chuck DeGroat
Yeah, yeah, I think that's it. You know, in in systems work, we talked about self-differentiation, right, and there is that sense in which we need to notice how parts of us are hooked into saving, rescuing, fixing, analyzing, all of those things that we tend to do when, when we're we're living these insane upwardly mobile lives, you know, and somewhat egocentric lives, you know, themes that I know, that you've talked about before. We've got to notice, okay, so what parts of me are feel like you know, have run ahead of me, and, and you know, there's another part of this conversation that we haven't had that's important, you know. It implicates our autonomic nervous system, our sympathetic system. I call it the sympathetic storm, and it's our body in this kind of chronic, chronic sympathetic storm, like the gas pedal down, go, go, go, go go, and it's a recipe for depletion, like in the short run, maybe in your 20s, your early 30s, there's a ladder climbing, you're running on a lot of sympathetic energy, but but after a while it's like my body is not going to keep doing this.
You know I can't keep up and that's when we hit the wall, you know and, of course, in your work, talking about, you know how, how our egos are implicated in that and the beautiful journey of downward mobility, where we find ourselves again and we find a new sense of authenticity. I mean, I think this is the, this is the. So I'm so glad you do this work, that you do and you speak about these things more broadly, because everyone at some level can relate to that. How we push, push, push, living in chronic sympathetic storm and hit some sort of wall.
0:27:08 - Betsy Jordyn
Yeah, and we get overly identified with, like these protections, I think, become our, our identity. You know, like I'm, you know like I'm a helper. I'm like, well, no, that's not my helper. You know, actually in my Enneagram I'm supposed to go from the helper to the four, which is in the spotlight, which is like the worst thing.
I went to this workshop the other day or like last year on, you know, becoming a speaker and you know they're all like, you know putting the camera on and everyone's like dancing, and it's like when do you want to be on the stage? Like when did you know you wanted to be on the stage? And like, oh, never. You know, like hiding behind everything else is great, but when they put the camera on me, I literally flood and hid and they all laughed at me. I'm like this is obviously, you know, like I meant to move into these spaces, but I'm not necessarily.
And so I think that when it comes to like the narcissism in the workplace, like at some point going through the signs of like what's going on with you? What are you? Maybe it's like it's not about like looking at it, like, oh, my boss has this trait, this thing. Maybe there's some stuff that you could find online that will validate it for you from a cognitive standpoint, yeah, but dial into your own feelings on it and I imagine if you're a consultant or coach and you're going into a system that has led by a narcissistic leader, you probably will see the symptoms in the people more than in the leader themselves. Like that will be your smoking gun, like what would be the signs in the system.
0:28:30 - Chuck DeGroat
Yeah, well, well, first of all, I mean, I think you're spot on and I think someone might go to you, know, to Google, and type in what does a narcissist look like? And they're going to see things like grandiosity and entitlement and they might say to themselves, well, that's not exactly how my boss is. My boss is kind of maybe the boss is a nine, you know a peacemaker, but maybe it's a quiet anger. You know Suzanne Stabille talks about the nines who store up arrows in their quiver. You know, maybe it's a sort of silent, passive, aggressive kind of narcissist whose anger comes, comes out in, in, comes out sideways, right, okay, well, you're not going to find that in a dictionary definition of narcissism, but you're going to find people now to talk about the system tiptoeing around this person.
You're going to find people triangulating the things that typically happen in systems, when people you know are don't feel like they can be themselves, right, and so they're going to be enmeshed with others. They're going to begin to cope in ways that are unhealthy. They're going to triangulate with people and tell stories that that reveal some of their own fears, but they're never going to be able to share that with the CEO, for instance. And so you're. You're going to be able to see in the system some of the ways in which people are coping and compensating and and and there again you know you can come back full circle to how it's showing up in the narcissist, but just pay attention to how it's showing up in the body or in the system first.
0:30:04 - Betsy Jordyn
But there's, there's still something about like, okay, someone could be passive aggressive, because I've been around passive aggressive people and then I've been around passive aggressive narcissist and they're just not the same, Not the same Like like the motivation is different.
It just feels like they're with a narcissistic system that you know there is a probably even more of that firewall up between my true self and that one. But there's this profound lack of empathy where it's like I can't make decisions and there is all of the other crazy making type of like I'll be passive aggressive. But no, we never said that or you know, you never asked me to do that. You know, like there's all of that kind of stuff. So when you're talking about, like seeing it in the system where everyone is tiptoeing around, somebody who kind of has that control, that control thing, you know like there are extra signs versus like wow, that person's passive aggressive, and then everybody talks about them.
Because there's a difference. Like if somebody's being a jerk in the workplace, you know everybody's going to go to all the employee be of a boss who's like passive aggressive is just a basic jerk. All the teammates are going to talk about them anyway. Like I've been a, I've been a corporate consultant, enough. I just know they're all going to chit chat by them. But there's something different when you have somebody who's toxic, like that. So what's the water cooler conversation and how is it different?
0:31:22 - Chuck DeGroat
I think what you're experiencing is, that is, more extreme nature of that person's power and control and how they're using it, and there's something about the nature in which they use their power, whether it's a power of a voice from a stage or the power of silence that is profoundly intimidating and it really in some ways takes away the voice of people who are around them. And so you know it's not your garden variety passive aggressiveness, because I'd say that when we talk about narcissism, we talk about it on a spectrum and the highest elevations of narcissists are the least self-aware people. There will be semi self-aware bosses, you know, who might receive some feedback and try to change, but when we're talking about narcissistic personality disorder, we're talking about someone who's completely blind to their way of showing up, and with that there's not just the kind of power, control and intimidation, but there can be a cruelty to the ways in which they wield that power that people experience as well.
0:32:29 - Betsy Jordyn
I had one leader, though he would stay straight out, like when he was getting together with new employees. He's like I've got these eight fatal flaws. And then it was almost like but you can't confront me in any of them, because I just said these are my eight fatal flaws. They kind of like look like they were being like oh, I'm so self-aware, but it was. It was, there was an aggressive aspect to it, like you better not confront me and I better get grace, because I've already told you these are my eight fatal flaws.
0:32:55 - Chuck DeGroat
That's a new flavor of narcissism that I call vulnerability, faux, vulnerability, vulnerability. Nowadays, you have people who are able to say I'm an INFJ, I'm an ENFD, I'm a I've been in therapy for 10 years and really demonstrate I'm sure you see this all the time demonstrate very little to no self awareness, but they're using that and I'm seeing this in, you know, the ecclesial world, the church world, a lot where where it's like you know I'm, I've been going to therapy for a while and I've been more vulnerable in my sermons and all these kinds of things. And yet the way their behaviors continue to show up in the workplace reveals what's really going on. And so, yeah, I think that's so helpful, betsy, what you just shared.
0:33:45 - Betsy Jordyn
So let's say so. Let's say I'm an executive coach and I'm hired to coach this person, you know. So I have somebody who's like really just wreaking havoc. You know, I did the assessment and I see all of the implications. Do you were mentioning the, the, the in the previous scenario where I'm like, oh, should I confront my boss? But it's like, well, what if you're hired to, you know, as a coach? You know, not necessarily as a therapist like you, but as a coach. Do you hold up the mirror for this type of behavior or do you just try to get through the engagement and get out because you can't really do anything?
0:34:21 - Chuck DeGroat
I think I think good coaches hold up a mirror and I realize there are a lot of different kinds of schools of coaching and coaching styles. I have some friends who have done a bit more of the psychological work, even the Jungian work. They take that into coaching. They see their coaching as more transformationally oriented versus merely like outcome oriented, pragmatically oriented, right. And I do think that some of my friends in the coaching space would say, yeah, it's my job to bring that kind of honesty until, to really lean in in those kinds of ways. And so I'm curious about your experience. You've been in the coaching world in a way that I've not been in the coaching world. What's, what's your advice to an executive coach in that kind of scenario?
0:35:08 - Betsy Jordyn
Well, the nice thing about you as an executive coach versus a direct report is you're not in the system, you're an observer of the system.
So you have already just a layer of objectivity and if you see it for what it is, just stay in your objective state, like, just, you know, if they're resistant or they don't respond, it's like, well, that's not your monkeys, that's not your circus, you know. You I would say, just do the best you can given the circumstances. But I would say that about anything when it relates to consulting or coaching and I don't know if you experienced this in the different kind of roles you have, is, you know, in my earlier part of my career I want to rescue everybody you know. Later on I can't rescue anybody you know, and so it's like it's just check your expectations of how far you can take somebody and you're not going to save the system. And if they're boss, if you're coaching somebody and their boss doesn't care, like if their boss likes, the outcome and the behavior doesn't matter. You just have to know that this coaching assignment is not really going to go all that far and just manage your expectations like do good work.
You know, because of your own integrity, because you you know I like, for me it takes. I take it very seriously when I do like focus groups and employees and trust me with that feedback, and so I'm not going to hold back in talking to that leader. But I also have to manage my expectations. But I got to stay. I got to stay in my objective zone. You know, like with that one client I was telling you about who is awful you know where, thank goodness for how bad he was, because that's when I decided to get really good at marketing is like my whole goal was like I got to replace this guy. But you know I got. I took it too personally and that's part of that work. You know it's like go in, stay separate, but manage your expectations. You're not going to save these systems.
0:36:54 - Chuck DeGroat
Yeah, that's it. And I think you know I, the work that I had to do around that was when I, when I don't come through in the ways that I think I I should come through, I fixed you, I've changed you. There's been radical transformation. What I had to trace that down to was a story of shame within me that was whispering well, you stink, you're not worth it, you can't do the job.
And I think any of us in this sort of helping space, whether it's counseling or coaching or spiritual direction, know some of that shame. We know those places where it's like you know, I'm a failure, I'll never be. You know, I'm sure there are people listening to your podcast who are like I'll just never be as good as Betsy is at this work. But we all I mean it's it's a human principle, right? It's inevitable that we all struggle at some level with shame, with feelings of worthlessness and insecurity. So how do we trace that back down and do our work around that so we don't show up next time having to fix or transform or, you know, in the ways that we've been talking about?
0:37:57 - Betsy Jordyn
So I feel like we're kind of going to really the meta theme of your work, at least my experience of it, which is around holdheartedness, you know, and I think that that's kind of where you're going back to is like, no matter what the triggers are in the system, everything, every single thing that you experience is an opportunity to go more into your heart. And you do talk about wholeheartedness, like what do you mean by that and how does that relate to you know, your interest, Because you also have a book on, you know, dealing with loving the difficult people in your life. I forgot the exact name, but something about like you have a couple books on loving difficult people and a couple books about growing into your own wholeness, so you got both sides going.
0:38:38 - Chuck DeGroat
The whole heartedness may be an antidote to narcissism, because when we're talking about narcissism or we're talking about any of these pathologies, in a sense we're talking about a divided heart, a divided life. You know a part of me that has been large and in charge from an early age because of the wounds that I bore in my early story, and so the journey to whole heartedness is really a journey of integration. That's the language that we use in the psychological world. We move from disintegration to integration, and so you know that requires a lot of vulnerability. You think about someone who's kind of lived a divided life and this is all they've known. They've lived out of more self-protected, maybe powerful parts of themselves or perfectionistic parts of themselves.
Imagine the perfectionist, the Enneagram one you know, and you and I are doing work with them and we say, to some degree, what the work that you're going to need to do is to embrace your own failures, your feelings of failure, your disappointments. Well, no, I want to be a perfectionist. This is the only self that I want to live out of. This is the me that I like. Well, there's a journey that they're going to need to take into deeper inner regions of their soul and body, to explore the parts of them that have been cut off, to remedy the division and disintegration within.
And that's what I love about the work is when you see people beginning to make those connections. They don't need to live out of perfectionism, control, achievement, hypervigilance, all these different kinds of ways that we live out of based on those Enneagram types, but we can embrace our humanness. Our limitation and that's the way of downward mobility to my mind, you know is that shift from egocentricity to authenticity, where we're living from the depths of our own parts with more honesty and more of a clear sense of purpose and call in the world. That's really beautiful, that's really fun and that's what I live for in large part of the work that I do.
0:40:46 - Betsy Jordyn
And I think that's where, like, the deeper meaning of my work this is where we intersect is, I believe, like a high achiever who hits the top of their profession and wonders like okay, what is it for? Maybe they get laid off or maybe they go through a health thing, but all of it is that invitation into that interior journey, that downward journey into like self. And because it's not like the career crossroads are not necessarily between like should I have a business or should I just stay working it's really around like should I keep up this facade of who I think I should be based on what everybody's telling me, or should I really discover who I am? That's the choice point and that's why it's so hard is like.
Well, this, I know, this protector thing has like been great. You know, this is like you know, got me to this point in my career, you know, and in my life. But I got to lose this so that all these other parts can flourish. You know you got to lose your identity as like, whatever your corporate job was, to let like the creative side come out, or, you know, let the playful side, or let the scholar, let all the other parts of you come out, and you got to like win over this trust of this protector or let go of it. Like how, how does this happen? Like, what do you do to what's the work?
0:41:59 - Chuck DeGroat
That's a good question. We should do a whole other podcast on that, because I mean these protectors, these protected parts of us.
We have to honor them. They have a story. You know I perfectionistic because I'm hyper vigilant, because I'm an achiever, because it's inevitably connected to you know a story that they've been living out of for a long, long time. You know because if, if I didn't achieve, I'd be seen as a failure in my family, because the Smiths always achieve. You know, because if I wasn't perfect, I'd experience the anger or rage or wrath of my mother. You know, and so that's the work is to to kind of drill down beneath the water line, so to speak, and get to those parts of us that have been exiled. And that's, that's if you've lived your life. Let's say you've lived 40 years of your life out of perfectionism. You know, you might that might be tough, you might be pretty resistant to that work.
0:42:57 - Betsy Jordyn
Yes, but then the other part is like finding the exiles, like that's where all the gold is, like that there's parts of you. There's there's parts of you that you had when you were little. That's why I always like I like to ask questions like around, like one of my favorite branding questions is tell me about what you play to us as a child, like what was your favorite toy and how did you play with it, because that will tell me who you were before your wounds took over and created this other persona.
0:43:22 - Chuck DeGroat
So good, that's such good work. Yeah, I love that. So there's this kind of return to innocence of thinking of the work of David White, the poet David White, who says you know, we, we, we shift from innocence to experience, but the task is to find that original innocence right and those exiles, they just long to be seen and known and loved and embraced and brought into the present so that we have that sort of youthful energy that you're talking about, that childlike energy, not childish, developmentally regressive energy, but childlike energy, yeah, yeah that's it, and I think that the protectors want to break.
0:44:00 - Betsy Jordyn
I don't think. I think they're tired.
0:44:03 - Chuck DeGroat
Yeah, you know it.
0:44:05 - Betsy Jordyn
So they're like okay, well, you know, thank you, it's almost like the, the LEM module on Apollo 13. It's like thank you so much, you protected me for a while, but bye-bye, you know, it was like that was great, but I just need to be in my rocket to actually go home, because I wasn't really designed to to go to moon, the moon and the LEM module. I don't know if that analogy makes sense or not.
0:44:25 - Chuck DeGroat
Yeah, yeah, 100%, yep.
0:44:27 - Betsy Jordyn
Yeah, so so tell me about what you're like you're? I know you have a new book coming out. I know you have several books, so if people want to get to your website, could you give me your website address and then? And then you have like soul care intensives, like can you tell us a little bit more about your world and what what people can access to learn more about you and engage in your work?
0:44:51 - Chuck DeGroat
Yeah, I mean the work that you're talking about. We're talking about. I do both as a therapist, but but even more importantly, I think in a five day soul care intensive where you know it's therapeutic, but there's also rest, refreshment, it's really designed for someone to recover their heart and do the work, the transformative work that we're talking about. So that's a five day soul care intensive. You'll find out more about that at my website, chuck2grokenet, and so that's where. That's where some of my books are and soul care intensive information and things like that. The new book again thinking about our conversation over this last hour is called Healing what's Within, coming home to yourself and to God when you're wounded, weary and wandering, and so healing what's within abuses what happens to you. Trauma is what lingers on, trauma is what happens within you, right? So how do we heal what's within and how do we come home to ourselves when we, when we often, you know, particularly at midlife, when we've been climbing this exhausting ladder feels so disconnected from ourselves? So that comes out October 10.
0:46:01 - Betsy Jordyn
Oh my gosh, I'm so excited. Put me on your waitlist. I'm definitely going to be the first up to buy it and I love this embodied, like we talked a little bit beforehand, that it's like part of the coming home to yourself is also like there's an embodiment to the healing. It's not just like in your head or it's typical. It's not just like the typical advice. It's more like how do you, how do you resolve the trauma from the inside out, like in every aspect, not just in your head.
0:46:29 - Chuck DeGroat
That's it. And so there's chapter three. I take it slow, and by chapter three I'm like, okay, now let's talk about your nervous system, and then let's shift to your attachment story and now let's talk about the different parts of you. So yeah, we're doing some of that work in the book.
0:46:44 - Betsy Jordyn
Yeah, that's fantastic. Is there anything else that you want to tell me about narcissism or becoming whole or anything about integration? And I'm just not asking you the right question.
0:46:56 - Chuck DeGroat
No, no, you've asked great questions and I think my invitation to folks always is if you're, if you have any question, seek out someone who can help you tease out that question. Chances are. If you write to me an email, I'm going to say the same thing, because I don't know the particularities of the story. You know and so, and a textbook definition or a Google definition might not help. Seek out someone who knows this territory, who knows narcissism, abuse, trauma and these kinds of dynamics, and get some care. That's what I'd say. That's awesome.
0:47:32 - Betsy Jordyn
I really just love the way you flip the whole idea. It's like, instead of like looking to this person and their attributes, look to yourself and find ways to heal yourself, and then the right decisions will present themselves. So I love that.
Yeah Well thank you, thank you. Thank you so much for being on the show. This has just been a huge blessing to me and for all of you who are listening. Thank you so much. If you like episodes like this, be sure to hit subscribe wherever you're listening and until next time, I just thanks for listening again, thank you. Thank you for tuning in. If today's episode lit a fire in you, please rate and review. Enough already on Apple podcasts or subscribe wherever you listen. And if you're looking for your next step, visit me on my website at bethysjordancom and it's Betsy Jordan with the why, and you'll learn all about our end to end services that are custom designed to accelerate your success. Don't wait. Start today.
