0:00:02 - Betsy Jordyn
Had enough, ready to turn your career into your own consulting and coaching business, you're in the right place. I'm Betsy Jordyn and, with my background as a consultant, entrepreneur and personal brand builder, i'm here to give you inspiration and guidance to own your brilliance, shape your brand, articulate your message and get seen and paid as the expert that you already are. This is enough already The place for consultants and coaches to learn how to create businesses and lives that they love. So hey there, everyone, and welcome to this week's episode of the Enough Already podcast, the show for consultants and coaches who want to forge their own path to success in their careers and their businesses and their lives. And today I have a very special guest.
We have an Enneagram expert, Sarah Wallace, on the show, and there's so many reasons why I wanted to have her here to talk about the Enneagram.
First off, the Enneagram, if you've ever heard of it, is a super cool tool.
It is very powerful specifically for consultants and coaches, And it's a way that we can help ignite the transformation on our clients. So I definitely wanted to have her on the show and give us all of our tips and wisdom on how we can use this powerful tool. However, there is a secondary benefit that I really wanted her to address and she's going to be addressing it for us today is that there's a lot of times when we, as consultants and coaches, were stepping outside of our comfort zone and we want to have like a little bit of freak out and panic attacks and we want to go into protection, and not all of us have the same way that we go into protection, and the Enneagram will give us insight into how we can really work with ourselves so that we can take bigger risks in our business, and I'm sure there's going to be so many really, really cool insights that Sarah's going to share with us. So, without further ado, i'm going to stop talking and I'm going to introduce Sarah. Welcome to the show.
0:01:52 - Sarah Wallace
Oh, thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it And you know you had said, this podcast is all about forging your own path, and I love the Enneagram because that it gives you some guidance on how to actually start to understand what that is, and so I'm excited to have this conversation. I feel like there's a lot of great overlap here.
0:02:17 - Betsy Jordyn
Oh, for sure, And I love the fact that you jumped in on that, because that's exactly what I love about the Enneagram. But before we get into the specifics of the Enneagram, i want to just talk a little bit about you, your background, and how did you come to choosing this level of expertise in this particular tool. Like, how did you become this Enneagram expert?
0:02:35 - Sarah Wallace
Well, it has been a windy path. We were talking a little bit before we hit record. I started out in the construction material industry. I was in environmental compliance. I thought I wanted to be Aaron Brockovich and go to law school to be you know, just take on the polluted water and all that kind of stuff. There is a lot of data and spreadsheets and attention to detail that is needed. So I worked my way five years through that and I was able to keep going. And this is going to tie back to the Enneagram in just a second, because each year that I thought this is the year that I'm putting on my notice and I'm finding something new I would get transferred, so I would move into a new city, take on a little bit different responsibilities, and so it was fresh and then I could maintain. So then I moved into a sales role, which sounds like, oh, that's so great, but I was in a cubicle And the reason why I was able to keep going there was every quarter or so we'd have an event, and so that would. I would get to travel, i would get to meet new people, and so that after five years I was able to maintain that And at some point I just I realized and maybe a lot of your listeners can relate to this I knew that this was not what I wanted to do.
A decade had went by and I was like I'm still not taking steps and where I thought I would ever be at, and so it's like my life is standing still. I saw a friend of mine build a gym a little mini gym pyre outside of Chicago And I was like we were at the same place five years ago and I'm standing still, basically. And so I took the leap and I was selling advertising and event sponsorships And I took that knowledge and started consulting for some of my former clients and gaining new clients and doing social media marketing, email writing, and then a lot of my clients, unfortunately, were in the health and fitness industry, that's, i worked for a publication selling ads and then COVID hit, and so you know, just kind of everybody probably has a story similar where they had to make a change. And I just really started to think listen, this isn't my long-term plan either. It was a way for me to get some flexibility and freedom, but this isn't either. What do I want to do?
And so, slowly, i had been incorporating the Enneagram personally and I realized, oh my gosh, there's so much that we could do. And so I started taking my consulting clients through the Enneagram for the onboarding process to learn a little bit more about them. And then I got to the point where I was like this is all I want to talk about, and so just over time it wasn't a big 180, but over time I just focused on the Enneagram, and so now I get to work with clients mainly in the workplace and business, whether it's entrepreneurs or leaders running teams, learning about the Enneagram And, ultimately, about themselves and the people they work with on a daily basis.
0:05:43 - Betsy Jordyn
So interesting. So it sounds like then for you you had a regular corporate job and you didn't feel like you were progressing And it's like, okay, i want to do my own thing, i want to be able to have charge over my career and do what I want to do. So you left And then, as you were playing around with your consulting, you discovered like hey, this is the tool I'm passionate about. And you really zeroed in there.
0:06:04 - Sarah Wallace
Yeah, exactly, and it has been something that I have personally used and gotten results from. It's like when somebody you know finds a diet or a product that they use themselves and love and want to promote. That's how I feel about the Enneagram. It's like I have personally transformed as a human being because of it, and so to this day, i still get so excited to talk about it, whether it's here or in a workshop or with just an individual. It's just, it can be life changing.
0:06:40 - Betsy Jordyn
You know, I was in the workplace when I got first introduced to the Enneagram.
I was still an internal consultant at Walt Disney World And, you know, as an OD consultant, you know I'm familiar with many different psychometric tools, like we use a strength finder, we use Myers-Briggs DISTAS and you name it. We've used it. But the Enneagram is very different in comparison to the other personality tools. There's a lot of dynamic elements to it. What is it about the Enneagram from your perspective that makes it special and that makes you so passionate about it, And can you give a little history of it? Because it's an old tool, It's not a new one.
0:07:15 - Sarah Wallace
Yeah, so there's all kinds of spiritual backgrounds that you can get into. Really, the modern Enneagram that most of us know started kind of coming together in the 1950s, and it is kind of what you see now. Enneagram means nine, gram is a diagram, so a nine types diagram, and it is it's absolutely a personality tool. It gets lumped into that category, and I understand why. I think one of the things that makes it different, though, is that when you really dig into it, it's not necessarily saying this is who Betsy is or this is who Sarah is. It's more shining light on your motives, about why you do what you do. It's also giving you some idea as to what your go-to strategies are, why you keep having the same problems in life, which that's the hard part to look at. But that is another kind of huge benefit of the Enneagram is. I love Strengths Finder, and especially, i think, as women, we don't embrace our strengths enough. And also there is something to be said about digging into the shadows, or some of that cringe-worthy actions and thoughts, behaviors that you might have that allow you to really grow as a human, as a business owner. And then the other thing that I love about it is that it's very fluid And this people have a love-hate relationship with because on one hand, it allows for not entirely encompasses the complexity of human beings, but allows for more of the complexity.
Rather than just saying these are your four letters, this is your color, it's saying, hey, you could be a type 7 in this case, but there's three different flavors of a type 7 once you start getting into it. Then there are average levels of health as a 7. There is when I've done a lot of growth. Maybe I'm really stressed and I need some additional professional support that that looks different And so we could have 7 7s in a room and we could all be behaving presenting a little bit different. And that's why we can't necessarily look at the behavior again. Going back to that motive And all kinds of things will play into that. But childhood, where you are in, birth order, culture, race, all kinds of things will factor into who you are. But I think it's a great tool for starting the conversation about getting curious about why you do what you do, where you're coming from, so you can advocate for yourself and then also understanding that about other people.
0:10:11 - Betsy Jordyn
So I like what you zeroed in on because it's about motivations. So people ask me all the time like, hey, which is the best? personality types or personality test should I use, not types, personality tests? I'm like, well, it depends on what you want to measure, because they all measure something different. The Myers-Briggs measures kind of like your behavioral biases none of your behavioral biases just kind of like your personality and the way that you're kind of wired. But disk measures behavior. It's very different. Strengths measure strengths. So you have to use different things.
And I like what you said about the enneagram is it talks a lot about your motivations. And what I thought was really interesting about it is it's not just motivations in terms of what drives me to help other people or make a difference, but also how you protect yourself And where do you go when you're in stress and then disintegration and where can you go. There's a lot of dynamics there. So it seems like that's what makes the enneagram is it's measuring something different. It's not like you have to choose between the enneagram or all the other ones. It kind of works in conjunction with the other ones. Is that accurate?
0:11:14 - Sarah Wallace
It does. It's a great compliment And, yes, it allows that. It's very fluid, which is beneficial for all the reasons you just said, and it can be frustrating for people, because I think we're especially here in the United States, we're in this culture where we want to answer And the typing process with the enneagram in and of itself is its own little journey, because we want to take a test and we want to know. This is just my type, this is just the number that I am. It's much more complex than that, but it's because the system is allowing for the complexity of human beings that we are.
0:11:56 - Betsy Jordyn
So okay. So let's do this real quick, because I have lots of questions around how a consultant or coach could use this with their clients. But I want to make sure everybody's like clear on what those nine different letters represent or the numbers, not letters, the numbers, what they represent. Can you just like really quickly go around the wheel of starting with the one, and the one is this and the two is that.
0:12:17 - Sarah Wallace
Yes, okay, so very quickly. So the type one they are striving to be perfect, to feel perfect. They are looking when you put on that lens. They are looking to make things better. They can overcompensate and struggle with being too critical of themselves and others.
0:12:37 - Betsy Jordyn
The type two, which I think you said Wait, let's before we get into it. So I picturing, as soon as you say that, martha Stewart, you know she's like a woman, oh yeah, i could see that is there a couple of famous people that you would say quickly. You could say, like all right, that person's probably a one.
0:12:54 - Sarah Wallace
You know Bernay Brown has identified as a type one with kind of the perfectionist, and then her interesting relationship with anger, trying to think, of course. I do?
0:13:06 - Betsy Jordyn
I would put her as an eight.
0:13:08 - Sarah Wallace
I would put her as a little one, You would. But yeah, she has said that she identifies as a type one And again, on the outside you could look like another type. But it's understanding why you do what you do. And why you do what you do is going to be different, But there's going to be one that tends to drive the bus most of the time unconsciously.
0:13:30 - Betsy Jordyn
Okay, now let's move on to two, because I'm a two. Okay, i was going to say yes, i think you identify as the two. This is the people pleasing her beside of me. Go ahead, yeah.
0:13:41 - Sarah Wallace
Yeah, so the two is striving to feel connected and they are looking for love and appreciation. They want to be wanted and they are known as the helpers and that they are tend to be pretty self-sacrificing. How that can kind of show up when they are really stressed or when they're using it, maybe without intention. using that energy is having issues with boundaries, both with themselves and then also with others, kind of meddling too much, just thinking that they know the answer, they know the advice, they know what to do. So one of their struggles is going to be around boundaries. I'm curious what about the two has resonated most with you?
0:14:32 - Betsy Jordyn
Well, the whole thing. I've spent a lot of time studying the Enneagram and, like you had said in our previous conversations, it's the power behind the throne. So as a consultant, my favorite spot was at the right hand of power. I never really wanted to be in the power And I see some of those struggles for sure at boundaries like boundaries all over the place, like that's an issue. But the other thing that there's, another dynamic of the Enneagram that I also resonate with is that you go to different numbers when you're in stress or in your path of healing. So I know when I am under stress is when I'm really like the anger, like comes in. You know, like so that's the eight, but I know, going into four, what you're going to get to in a second is my path of opportunity. So I know, like becoming more of a visible thought leader, you know, and coming up with my ideas, like I went to this. I was part of a similar group that you are speaking, your brand, and I was working on my thought leadership And the idea.
It's one thing for me to hide behind other people's ideas or just philosophies or branding or anything, but to tell my story. It was like I felt like a death. It's like to come out. It was like, oh my gosh, i want to die. Like you know, versus other people who might be natural speakers or want to be on the stage, like I've never been somebody who craves the stage. I like to crave behind the stage, like I'll give you all your message points and you go and say these things.
So, being the one out there, you know, i could command a room of executives, but it's not my content. So it's no problem, because I get hide behind. It's their content, their ideas. So it's interesting because I'm like one of those people. If you look at my YouTube channel and with like of our hundred videos I got podcasts, i got all these other things and it's like hiding in plain sight. You know it's one of those interesting things, so coming out. So there's a lot of things about it that I resonate with, and I'm probably not the only consultant or coach type of person who probably resonates with a two. There's probably a lot of us who are twos, i would imagine.
0:16:30 - Sarah Wallace
Yes, and I think a lot of times, women this is one that I always kind of add a disclaimer with two, because women the helper, self-sacrificing especially, you know, if you have kids like this is kind of like the image here in the United States anyway, that we have created is like the ultimate successful woman. Be this way. So sometimes women will mistype, but again, understanding that core motive, not how you think you should behave, but really getting honest with yourself about why you do what you do, and you'll know your two if that kind of striving to feel connected, loved, wanted, appreciated is at the top of the list. Yeah, let's talk about the threes. Well, speaking of the spotlight, threes enjoy the spotlight.
Most of them are threes, are striving to feel outstanding and they are the ultimate role model. They, a little similar to the ones, are looking to make things better. They are excellent at efficiency. They make things happen. They have this energy that pushes goals forward, very, very goal oriented. Sometimes in stress that may kind of that can get overdone and they can become workaholics. They can feel like they should be doing more, they should have more, and they can get a little wrapped up in their image about what they look like versus what do they really want out of life?
0:17:59 - Betsy Jordyn
out of work. So it sounds like a bunch of executives, so a lot of the people who are listening in, who are supporting executive clients either as a consultant or coach. you're probably going to find yourself working with a lot of threes. Is that accurate? You?
0:18:13 - Sarah Wallace
will see a lot of threes and a lot of eights, maybe some sevens, being kind of that entrepreneur or leadership inside a corporate culture.
So, what about the fours? Our type fours are striving to feel unique. They are looking for significance. They are looking to be able to express their authentic self, to be accepted for who they really are. Sometimes, again, when we're using their energy without intention or just kind of unconsciously, that same energy will make them feel like they will never be good enough. Like ones, and fours tend to have a really harsh, loud inner critic. The difference is ones will feel like if I can just work harder, if I can just do better, i will get there, whereas fours tend to feel like I'm just inherently wrong, like something's inherently wrong with me. It can't be fixed, which is really sad. So you can have a lot of empathy for this.
They are very creative. When they walk into a room where twos might be looking at who can I connect with, or threes might be looking at who could I network with, fours are taking in the atmosphere aesthetically. What does the food look like? What's the decor look like? They say Steve Jobs was a type four, with his creativeness, thinking outside the box. So I don't know. He did never take the Enneagram, i don't think. But that energy is some of what fours will look like.
0:19:44 - Betsy Jordyn
I put him as a three with a four-wing. You know, like something along those lines. You know when you're talking about the four. Do you ever see the movie Greatest Showman? Yes, so the woman who sings Never Enough, the greatest opera singer. I forgot her name from that character in the show where she was the opera singer and she sang that song Never.
0:20:05 - Sarah Wallace
Enough.
0:20:06 - Betsy Jordyn
Like. it seems like that's the anthem of the four. is you know all the stars in the shine? I forgot the words of it. I'll have to look it up, but do you know that song that I'm thinking of? It'll? never be enough never be enough and she's that, you know, supposedly the greatest singer. Seems like there's a lot of fours, probably in Hollywood and the arts.
0:20:26 - Sarah Wallace
Yeah, i think Taylor Swift might be a four just with her ability to tap into the motion. So twos and fours in threes too. But they tend to Say i'm going to come back to emotions, because they're so focused on the goal, it can get in the way. But twos and fours also are very focused on emotions. Twos tend to be more so on someone else okay, or how are they doing and kind of self forgetting, whereas fours tend to be a little bit more dialed in to how they feel, feel, and so I think, does some of this, the lyrics that Taylor will will write and come up with them like wow, you gotta be really dialed in to how you're feeling and have that creative touch To to come up with some of that stuff, because i'm like, oh gosh, i would never think about that, i don't even know that I have those feelings.
Alright, fives Are. Fives are striving to feel self sufficient, capable, competent. They are looking to almost it's not a bad thing almost kind of detach themselves, so that they will not be overwhelmed by other people's emotions, other people's needs, and they can just kind of be left alone to do their own thing, so that they can read more, learn more, dive in more analyze. They are sometimes known as the observer, the thought leader. They are also very visionary, but it's a little different than our Fours, because they're taking in the data, the logic, and making them make sense. Sometimes they can become too withdrawn, to isolated to in their heads, to the point where it's just learning, learning, learning and never taking any action.
0:22:09 - Betsy Jordyn
So like there's a students like, like, seems like a, like a Hillary Clinton might be this five, you know, like, always prepared very studious.
0:22:17 - Sarah Wallace
Yes, you know, we both speaking of speaking. Your brand, carol Cox has identified as a as a type five.
0:22:26 - Betsy Jordyn
And what? the four way?
0:22:27 - Sarah Wallace
dad, i don't know that she got into the, got into it that far, but I could absolutely see that because She does add the, the, you know, the beautiful graphics and just the creativity, so I could see that for sure.
0:22:43 - Betsy Jordyn
Am being on the stage and helping people be on the stage. You know, finding their voice. That's interesting. I can definitely can see that as a historian. That makes sense.
0:22:53 - Sarah Wallace
Yeah, yeah, and so she was saying to like, she likes the back end of the business and like how to make it work and analyzing the numbers, and that That's true.
0:23:04 - Betsy Jordyn
Yeah, she's very inspirational on that, you know, cuz I hate that part, so I must be like in the shadow of a tube because, like, all that's the stuff that I have to work on. But she's amazing at that And she and that's why cuz I keep wondering all the time like she does so much I'm like that's probably why is she is so good at the back end.
0:23:21 - Sarah Wallace
Yeah, yeah, and figuring out yeah, how can we make this work? and you know, diet, diet, lean it in based on the data, not like, how do I feel about this? but what are the numbers? say, what's the information? say, okay, let's do.
six, our six are striving to feel safe and secure and they are the ones that tend to have a contingency plan for a contingency plan. when they put on their lens, they are looking at What could go wrong, and not from a negative perspective. so much as I really care about my group, my client, whoever it is, my family, friends, i want to make sure that we're all going to be okay, that I'm going to be okay, that they're going to be okay. so, what could go wrong? Let's get a plan to prepare for it.
on kind of the stress side for a six, when that becomes kind of overused, they can become To anxiety ridden, constantly thinking about what could go wrong, to the point where again they don't take action but because of I'm afraid I'll do it wrong. Six is also really struggle with self doubt and trusting themselves. they have a very interesting relationship with authority. they don't want to be told what to do, but also they just want someone to tell them what to do, and so, if you're coaching or working with the six, being sensitive to that power dynamic is really important.
0:24:47 - Betsy Jordyn
So could you give an example of anybody that people can visualize, who could represent that six energy?
0:24:55 - Sarah Wallace
Type six. I'm trying to think who in real life I might know as a type six. Of course, again, like I can't think of anybody, this is going to be your entrepreneur, though, who? or your, your consultant, who is going to be incredibly loyal. They are going to make a great business owner because, kind of like the five, they are able to see the data they are. They also spend a lot of time in their heads, but, again, they will have to work on trusting themselves and doing what is right for them, not necessarily what has worked for somebody else. So I don't have a specific example right now, but if it pops up I'll break in and let you know. Okay, cool, all right, sevens, because you know that one.
0:25:43 - Betsy Jordyn
well, i do.
0:25:47 - Sarah Wallace
So this is the one I most identify with. Striving sevens are striving to feel excited, looking for something that's not right. I'm looking to avoid emotional pain and discomfort, wanting to keep their options open, looking for limitless freedom. They are the vision. They are also very visionary. They tend to be very magnetic when they walk into a room. They are bringing the excitement and the enthusiasm. When this gets over or done, when the strategy gets over done, it can be very chaotic to be around, especially as, as a leader where you have all of these ideas, i say, brainstorming is the love language for our sevens, and they also are in their heads, like our five, six and sevens, but instead of the six with around what could go wrong, six or sevens are thinking what could go right, and they just see all the possibilities. The problem sometimes, though, is that there's a million possibilities right, and at some point you have to pick a path. Otherwise, you have, you know, 10 unbuilt bridges, and so their work will be to focus To be able to actually bring a vision to life.
0:27:00 - Betsy Jordyn
So for an example for a seven, if you go back to one of my podcast episodes that I did with Sarah King, she's the CHRO for Darden. She identifies it as a seven and she talks a lot about You know just her, like she's. She's constantly that vision person. But what I also love about working with Sarah and being around Sarah is like she's just like loves life. Like I feel like I love food more when I'm around Sarah. I love drink more when I'm around Sarah, like I just love life more and she's doing the coolest thing. Right now she's getting ready to do a kind of like a local dancing with the stars for charity And it's like she's like whatever, like she's a senior executive and she does all of these cool things. I imagine, like when you're on, that's how I know I'm around. A seven is do I love life more? do I love food more? do I love you know, the finer things more? do I appreciate it more?
0:27:53 - Sarah Wallace
Yeah, it can be very contagious. I don't know if you have any Marvel fans in here, but I would say Tony Stark would be a seven. He would be one of the flavor of a seven that is very flamboyant, maybe a wing eight, but he has, you know, those big ideas like let's just, you know, we'll ask for permission later. kind of energy will figure it out on the way.
0:28:16 - Betsy Jordyn
Oh, we should have done the Marvel characters all the way through, because you can kind of see Black Widows, the two, and you know like.
0:28:24 - Sarah Wallace
Well, Mrs Potts, Pepper Potts, I always think, is a type two. Oh yeah, Oh yeah.
0:28:30 - Betsy Jordyn
Captain.
0:28:30 - Sarah Wallace
America is the one. I always see him as a one. Oh yeah, for sure.
0:28:35 - Betsy Jordyn
And then Thor three. And wait where does the three go? into disintegration, because we could see what happens when he gets so depressed in the infinity world.
0:28:46 - Sarah Wallace
Yeah, Oh, like an energy.
0:28:49 - Betsy Jordyn
When he's so depressed, like where did he go? Where's Rocket? You know, rocket's probably like who's the sarcastic one? He's probably an eight.
0:28:55 - Sarah Wallace
No Well threes do go to the type nine in stress, so that could make sense. That's why you get laid back and kind of fall asleep to themselves in the world around them. Yeah, rocket, he could be an eight. Yeah, so it's kind of fun, you know, to nerd out. I'm glad you're with me on the Marvel.
0:29:18 - Betsy Jordyn
Oh yeah, i wish I would have thought about it at the beginning of the interview. We would have used the Marvel the whole time. Okay, let's talk about the eights. My daughter's an eight, so I definitely know the eights really well.
0:29:27 - Sarah Wallace
Okay. Eights are striving to feel powerful, so they are looking to be strong, looking to avoid being taken advantage of being in a vulnerable situation. They are fierce protectors both of themselves and those in their circle. It's very difficult to get into an eight circle, but once you're there, you're there until you know you're not. But they tend to be very decisive, confident communicators. You will see a lot of eights in the corporate world and the entrepreneur space because they have this very, you know, decisive, confident energy. It tends to be assertive.
Sometimes people experience it as aggressive, it can get overdone and feel on the receiving end like it's domineering, it's controlling, it's my way or the highway. So something that the eights will have to be cautious of. This is another one that I always kind of put an asterisk at when I'm talking, especially to other women, because there are a lot of eight women. Again, this is kind of one of those like if you're a man it is a powerful type to be, like you are the boss, but if you're a woman, you are the other B word with this energy. And so sometimes eights will have over time, shifted their behavior to maybe look like a two, and so it can be kind of confusing in the typing process what you really are, but going back to that core motive, so I'd be curious what you're, what you've noticed with your daughter's experience.
0:31:08 - Betsy Jordyn
Well, we've always had this conversation, ever since she was a child, like a really small child, that she needs to use her leadership gifts for good, not for evil. You know where we have to do world clarification around, like, well, maybe in a previous lifetime you were my mother, but in this one I'm your mother, you know. So we have to always have that world clarification. But I go back to like when she was super little, so she was very clear.
What I love about my daughter so much is she knows exactly what she wants And so it's in some ways easy to parent her, you know, compared to my other daughter who I think was more like a five or six, and because she's very clear. So I remember when she was like two years old and I was trying to switch her out of like a bottle to a sippy cup, or maybe even younger, so I put like water in the bottle and I put milk on the sippy cup And like she threw in both against the off, you know, threw them both across the room and did not settle down until I put the milk back into the bottle And she's like okay, she's happy. So she knows what she wants and she's very protective over me like very protective, to a point where it's like I have to, i have to let her be the child a point in time, like she doesn't know how to be that child.
0:32:12 - Sarah Wallace
Yeah, that, and that is very typical of that type. Eight energy. For whatever reason, even if you have the best childhood in the world, there is something that that happens where it's like you feel like you have to kind of be in that role. So that that's really interesting. And, yes, eight eights are always I'm thinking as a seven like how can I channel my, my eight wing today to be very clear about what I want? And eights typically have a very strong gut instinct, and so it's like I can't tell you why I'm doing this, i just know this is the right decision And I have also the confidence and the energy to move forward with it. So they make a lot of things happen.
0:32:57 - Betsy Jordyn
I interviewed Leslie Lyons, who's also part of the speaking your brand community, and I believe she identifies as an eight and it was one of the funniest interviews I've ever had, like I was rolling on the floor but she's so in her power, like she's so fiery And it's like I find myself, as a two, always attracted to eights. You know, it's like I love these eights. I'm like I just like, like you wanted to channel it for good, because I think I think all women we really need to learn how to channel it and channel this strength in the in the light attribute, because we can be decisive and it's not bad for us to do that, but we do get dinged for being decisive and being that fiery personality.
0:33:36 - Sarah Wallace
Yes, exactly, And I have. I've had Leslie on my podcast to talk about life as a type eight and you're absolutely right, Like she is so fun to talk to you and so inspiring You're like I'm going to take this energy with me into the rest of my day.
0:33:52 - Betsy Jordyn
And she like tells her story too, like when she knew when she was supposed to be in charge, even from the time that she was young. Like this is like such a cool thing where somebody didn't step on the hose in terms of her power, you know. or she had a moment where she thought somebody was going to step on the hose and then she didn't let it happen. She let that be a defining moment for her. I just I love her energy And I think that that is a really great picture for us. Okay, let's finish up with the nine on going through the whole wheel here.
0:34:19 - Sarah Wallace
Nine's are striving to feel at peace, both internally and in the environment that they are in, and so they are looking to also avoid any type of conflict. They don't want to do anything that might put them in a position that would rock the boat, resulting in being disconnected from their people. They also very much want to belong. They tend to be known as going with the flow. They are more comfortable and uncertainty because of that It can get overdone, kind of that go with the flow energy when they allow themselves to kind of fall asleep to life, whether it's falling asleep to themselves to the point where I just interviewed a type nine today actually, and they say, oh, they always the example of where do you want to go to dinner always kind of gets brought up And they say like they truly don't care. There are things like that. But then there's also other things where they'll say, oh, i don't care, and it's not, they truly maybe don't care.
But part of that is because years and years and years of shoving down their thoughts and opinions that they feel like might rock the boat has completely disconnected them from what they truly do want. So the work of the nine will be reconnecting with what do you really think about this? Like, what do you really think? What do you actually want to do? They have an interesting relationship with anger or ones, and our eights and our nines are all in this body center of intelligence that have some sort of interesting relationship with anger and they very steady, eddie, except after at some point they will have kind of a blow out there And they're like I'm kind of tired of it. So I always think of the nine as kind of the Hulk, like very cool, even keel until until it's not, oh yeah.
0:36:12 - Betsy Jordyn
So that's like Bruce Banner when he's like in his normal state like he's, chill, he's, he's just like a good team member. But when Hulk gets activated, that's a really good example And I think that there's an important distinction too like what the twos is. I have that same thing. Like, well, where do you want to go? I don't have an opinion.
It's like, well, why want to know what you want to do, Like I have to do and then like choosing versus, like the, the nines might be doing it for other reasons, like they may really may not know, or they might go with the flow.
0:36:41 - Sarah Wallace
Yeah, yeah. And another interesting kind of nuance about those two types, because this that's a very common struggle Am I a two or am I a nine in the typing process? And twos all types can be empathetic, right, but twos just tend to be so in tuned with what others need. They're the type of people that will say I will ask, how are you? And you might say, oh, i'm fine. And a nine probably like, okay, just take it on faith value. They said they're fine, but a twos going to be like no, no, no, how are you really, how are you really doing? And then have the awareness and insight about that person because they've been paying attention to be able to provide what they need, the support they actually need, without maybe that person even knowing what they need. So that is very much a superpower of that two energy.
0:37:33 - Betsy Jordyn
Well, i feel like what gives me a superpower also, like as a branding person you know somebody who helps people with their brands is I get comments all the time like how do you understand, like the heart and the feelings, that needs of somebody who's not even in the room? Like, well, that's like my two superpower. Like I've spent my life like anticipating what other people can feel in the future And then where the codependence comes is I make decisions in the, in the current state, to avoid them having any negative feelings in the future. So like I'll get very, i'll get very aggressive with my clients if I think they're going to make a mistake for the future, because I want to help them avoid future pain. But that's like okay, there's a little bit of like a boundary issue here, but that is a superpower And it's sort of an Achilles heel.
So, have you ever seen that video? just to kind of like like to put a summary on that part, because I have other questions. I want to ask you to understand the differences. Have you ever seen that Enneagram and the Bohemian Rhapsody, that song? No, oh, i have to get a link. I'm going to put it in the show. Okay, it's so funny, but they somebody did this whole Bohemian Rhapsody on the Enneagram and they talk about the different types. So I'll definitely put that in the show notes so that I would love to see that too.
0:38:40 - Sarah Wallace
Yes, it's hilarious.
0:38:42 - Betsy Jordyn
So let's talk about this tool, because consultants and coaches could definitely use this tool to make a huge impact with their clients. You know what are some tips that you would give to consultants and coaches and like how can you use this, like with your executive or one-on-one when you're working with individuals? how can this tool benefit you?
0:39:00 - Sarah Wallace
You know, speaking from personal experience, one of the biggest ahas I had when I started learning about the Enneagram and learning about myself And the impact I had on others, was that not everybody approaches A project or an idea with the same energy or intensity that I might. And it's not wrong or right, bad or good, it just is. And so I remember I had this client in the beginning and he just processed information More slowly, like he was very thoughtful. I think he was a type 5, i don't know. But if I had to say he was a type 5 and I'm saying, just do it, just give it a try, see what happens, you know, just like kind of wing it. It's like, no, no, i don't, i don't want to wing, i'm not, we need it, and so we would have the same conversation Over and over and over and I would get so frustrated.
But now that I, i know, okay, some people might just process information differently, slower, faster and and I can, i can be, i can allow that, rather than Push or right, you know, say, well, this worked for me, it has to work for you, but knowing, okay, that may not work for you If this, this is like you're the energy that you're bringing to this or how you view this. We need to. Let's try something else. So right away you can. You don't even have to know somebody's an eagram type to start to realize They're processing this a little bit differently.
0:40:26 - Betsy Jordyn
You know that's interesting is because people could do respond to advice or ideas differently. So in terms of like one-on-one coaching, like really being much more cognizant around, like okay, i might handle it this way, i could think about like well, maybe they have a different type, try to understand that. I also think that could probably help with like stickholder management, you know, recognizing that you got a group of people and they're all gonna react differently to your idea and they're all gonna have different Responses. You know that, based on whatever it is. So learning how to manage that, i imagine that might be another benefit.
0:40:59 - Sarah Wallace
It is and knowing, okay, i have a tendency to maybe share information or present With this as the focus, but I kind of have an idea that my group maybe is looking at something else. So you know, it can, it can feel kind of defeating. If you happen to be a seven, i'll pick on myself for a second and present a new, an idea, and you're like this is so exciting, i can't wait to share this with you. And then you have someone with some six energy Just peppering you with all these questions and such a downer gosh. Or it can feel like, oh my gosh, they're so like suffocating and they hated this idea. They're no fun, but it's like oh, no, no, no, this was important to me, but this is what they care about and so let me make sure that I'm answering the questions as much as I can, or You know, whatever, whatever that type is. So a great, great point, Betsy, on just being aware of your audience to And how. What's important to them when you're sharing an idea.
0:42:02 - Betsy Jordyn
Or it's like maybe when you share an idea, you kind of run it through the filter around, okay, so if I'm dealing with, so just I'm gonna assume if I have a group of people, i'm gonna have some mix of all of these different, different types in the room. So if I'm gonna do a presentation for the ones, i need to make sure that my eyes are, my eyes are dotted, my teaser crossed. It looks visually beautiful. You know, when I'm talking about like to the twos is making sure that I'm considering people and all the people impacts. Or if I'm talking to the threes, i need to make sure that, like how we're gonna achieve these goals, and you know, you can kind of go through and say, all right for the thinkers, i need to show my data, my math, how did I get to this idea, all the risks of the contingencies, and you know. And maybe you just need to embed it all in your presentation where it's like alright, when you do a final check, it's like did I consider everybody in my audience?
0:42:55 - Sarah Wallace
Yeah, and and a shortcut to that, because sometimes, especially to Someone who's just getting introduced to the Enneagram, that can be like oh my gosh, that's a lot, i got a lot, study a lot. The Enneagram is divided up into all kinds of different groups of threes and one of those groupings is around how you handle Conflict. But you can take that Concept and apply it to marketing or presentation and the concept is this it's that three types to sevens, nine Tend to look through a positive outlook, so they're gonna see like what's possible, what could go right, relationships, that kind of thing. The there's types ones, threes and fives who tend to look at the data, the logic. We're sensible, mature adults, let's just take the emotion out of it and and get down to business.
And then there are types or fours, our fives and our nines who tend to I'm sorry That's a different group Are our fours, our sixes and our eights who tend to look at it with emotional reactivity. And so you want to add in some sort of emotional story or some sort of piece of information that can be really compelling and actually cause an emotional reaction to you know, get, get people excited or whatever you need them to feel. And so when you're thinking about that, that's always been an easy way for for me to kind of remember. You know all the different pieces that need to be incorporated, because, you're right, people are looking for different things.
0:44:30 - Betsy Jordyn
So you could you have definitely use it in coaching. You definitely use it in presentations. What about, like, team building? like, do you use the Enneagram with team for team building with your clients?
0:44:41 - Sarah Wallace
Yeah. So that that is one of the biggest ways that I work with the Enneagram now is understanding, helping leaders understand who is Working with them, and then also helping the team itself understand, especially these teams that are Remote. And so it's like what did they mean by that in the Slack channel? What did they say in email? And gosh, that sounded abrasive. But it's just an eight being direct and to the point, or a three being efficient and the least amount of words possible.
And so what I hear from Leaders who have started to use the Enneagram with their team is that one way that it has helped is how they give feedback, because they realized my style tends to be that eight style, for example, let's say, and I tend to be really direct, but I know for some of my team That's caused a lot of hurt feelings, it's caused resentment, it hasn't, it hasn't worked well, and so, knowing how I tend to get feedback and then knowing their personality, i can kind of tailor not become somebody new, but tailor how I present that information In a little bit different way. Eights are just gonna want you to give it to them. Don't beat around the bush, but it to you may need to do the same much the positive, the negative, the positive and put it in there, and Knowing the different people on your team can allow you to share that needed feedback in a way that's more receptive.
0:46:12 - Betsy Jordyn
So we can use it for one-on-one coaching, we could use it for Presentations, we could use it for team building, we could use it for performance coaching feedback.
It sounds like there's so many uses and it sounds like you're doing that a lot with your clients. Can we switch gears for a moment, because I want to talk a little bit about one other dynamic that I experienced at the Enneagram. You know, which is like when, where you go, when you're afraid, and a lot of the people that I work with are entrepreneurs either brand new Entrepreneurs or entrepreneurs are getting ready to scale our business, and everybody I work with, they all want to have, like, not just a business It's profitable, but one that's closer to their heart, which creates all this vulnerability, all this fear. And what I love about the Enneagram is It's our fears, in the way that we handle them, all present very differently, you know. So can you talk a little bit about how somebody could use this tool to help themselves? I kind of self coach themselves through their own fears and anxieties so that they can take bigger risks in their business.
0:47:11 - Sarah Wallace
Yeah, so it shines light, like we talked about, on your strengths, but then also kind of those shadow sides that you tend to neglect, and a lot of times completely unconsciously. And so the more that you understand the type and ultimately yourself, the more light you can shine on that and understanding. And so you know, for a two, one of their fears might be stepping into the spotlight, getting visible, sharing their voice rather than you know, coaching their clients to use their voice, for example. And so tapping in and understanding there may be. It may not come natural to me, but I know that I can do that. I know when the time calls for it, i can step into the spotlight.
For a seven, for example, we tend to be afraid of commitment, of routine, of structure, of uncomfortable feelings, and so what do we do? You know we run away, we distract yourself with all the kinds of it's going to be very hard to run a successful business. And so leaning in and realizing, hey, i can still bring excitement with the routine, i can still bring the excitement with structure that allows me to just have some guardrails on all this enthusiasm and all these new ideas. And so it's not that you need to be someone else. It's just realizing. You know where have I maybe overdone this strategy And it's no longer helping me. I've created habits that don't serve me anymore. Versus what might I need to change, that isn't maybe natural, but I'm absolutely capable of doing it. Is that what you were talking about, Betsy?
0:48:54 - Betsy Jordyn
Yeah, for sure, We're definitely in that zone. For example, I would say like if I have a client who's a one, I'm thinking typically how they're going to show up when they're afraid, is they're going to go into analysis? I mean not analysis, they're the perfection paralysis. So my ones are going to be the ones where it's like hey, I don't like that one shade of color. Can you change it different, Like they're very good, they get zeroed in on that one.
You know where my? I think it's like the fives get into analysis, paralysis, Like they'll just keep going on and on and on. You know, the sixes get like paralyzing fear. The nines are going to be the ones where they're going to procrastinate everything Like. they're just not going to do anything. The twos are going to do endless coffees for free.
0:49:36 - Sarah Wallace
Just the twos that are worth.
0:49:37 - Betsy Jordyn
You know the fours are going to be comparing themselves with everybody else. You know the sevens might spend some time on social media and doing like posts that really don't do anything for their business. You know, like I kind of see them have you know, different ways that they show up Like hey, when I'm afraid, based on my Enneagram type, i'm going to choose one of these, like go to strategies that work for me And it's like, how do you get out of that one? Cause it's like I for sure I know, when I'm dealing with a one, like why are you asking me? you know we could spend, you know we could spend a lot. Like I know this shade of blue is nice, um, but you know, and I know it could be better, but it's, it's good enough, isn't it? You know it really is not that bad, you know.
0:50:17 - Sarah Wallace
So Yeah, And we talked about this at the very beginning. One of the things that I love about the Enneagram is that it gives you specific guidance, so it's not just saying, um, there's all kinds of great advice out there, but it allows you to see what advice is good for you. So exactly what you were saying for a type one. We each have a growth arrow or like a resource point that we can kind of get some specific ideas for what we need to do. So, for example, the, the perfectionist, um, their growth arrow is to the seven, which we talked about, kind of jumps in, um, has the enthusiasm, is is okay, it doesn't have to be perfect, and so not being a seven, but bringing in some of that behavior, some of those intendancies and and and blending it with your superpowers of the one, so that you can move forward and and get to your goals.
0:51:12 - Betsy Jordyn
Yeah, i think that that's what I love about the tool too is just the dynamicness of it. But then the prescript development, like when I was having a meltdown, when I was at that speaking um training, where I had to be on stage with a bunch of fours who are naturally really good on stage Like I just knew that. I knew that this was good for me. I knew that this was not just going to be about me speaking, but it was about me moving into this next phase of my evolution as a human being, and I think that's what I love so much about the tool as well. Do you work with people one-on-one, like kind of working through some of those kind of issues, like, if they have mindset issues, how they can use the tool to sort of like jumpstart their ability to get out of them out of these situations?
0:51:52 - Sarah Wallace
Yeah, so we'll use it um to for, uh, you know, entrepreneurs, coaches, consultants, others, coaches, consultants to understand even, um, like, how to set up their business in a way that better aligns with their personality. And I'll you know, an example is I was doing a lot of one-on-one work and just knowing my personality and just digging into more of the seven strategies, i realized I really thrive in a group And so, about two years ago, i started shifting into doing more group work, more workshops, more in-person and getting to travel, and so it can even help you kind of set up your services, maybe make some pivots. Maybe you don't want to be on video, or you do want to be on video And just realizing again, you know, what works for Betsy or what works for Sarah may not necessarily work for you. So, understanding what is going to to to maybe feel a little easier or more aligned, um, the more that you know about yourself.
0:52:54 - Betsy Jordyn
So, those who are listening, if you're a corporate leader and you want to have somebody come in to do a workshop, facilitate a team building. Sarah's, your girl, is that correct?
0:53:03 - Sarah Wallace
I love them. Yes, i, i, i will be your, i will be your in-eagram guide. Um it, it's just, I think, too. Anytime a corporation whether it's the in-eagram or or SprinkFind or whatever it is sets aside not only money but time to allow their team to go through something that that allows them to get to know themselves, to study themselves, is such a gift, like such a cool company. I think that says a lot about the culture, because we have spent elements, you know, since elementary school learning about other people, um, and we don't really get a lot of time to really study and learn about ourselves. So it's, it's a gift, um, it's just such a cool gift when I see companies setting aside time for things like this.
0:53:48 - Betsy Jordyn
I agree, because that is something that's, like, everybody's so focused on, like how do I be a great leader for other people or how do we do the best services for our customers, but it's like we forget about ourselves. That is a huge right. So what's your website? Like? how can people find out more about you and your programs?
0:54:03 - Sarah Wallace
I have, um, all of my workshops are over. At https://www.enneagrammba.com/. We have starter intro to the Enneagram to to half day workshops, um, and then um. I have the podcast as well, also called Enneagram MBA, and that's really fun because, um it, it's a way for even me to learn about the Enneagram in real life. So it's one thing to read about it right or to study it, but it's a whole other thing to say Hey, Betsy, how do you experience the type two, which it sounds like we're going to have a conversation about in the near future on the on the show?
0:54:41 - Betsy Jordyn
I would love to do that, so, yeah, Yeah, so okay, so is the any can I? can I find about the Enneagram MBA podcast from your website? or is there somewhere else? Or is it? can I find it wherever I listen to podcasts?
0:54:54 - Sarah Wallace
For every listening podcast. It's also on the website. Oh, very cool. Keep it simple.
0:54:59 - Betsy Jordyn
I think one of the exercises you and I should probably do afterwards is figuring out like how all the Marvel characters connect with the. Enneagram. So maybe we could play around with that. Maybe we could create a little visual as a bonus for everybody who's listening. That would be really fun.
0:55:13 - Sarah Wallace
Well, you know, there is a gentleman who teaches the Enneagram and he actually started a podcast called the Enneagram and film and he did a whole series on the Marvel characters And they each kind of shared what they thought each each was. I disagreed on some of them, so we might have to we still might have to come up with our own.
0:55:34 - Betsy Jordyn
That would be fun. Well, maybe we can get his link. We'll put that in the show notes as well.
So that was really fun. I feel like I could talk to you forever and I really don't want to end the conversation, but we do at some point we have to end this conversation. So this was so much fun. Thank you so much for being on the show and thank you for just for sharing your wisdom, your energy, your heart. I definitely would recommend Sarah to anybody who's listening in, and for corporations I just want to speak to you all, since you're all in my background and I've worked in as a consultant.
The Enneagram is such a cool and dynamic tool. I know you've done the Strength Finder. I know you've done the Myers-Briggs. You probably haven't done this one. This is completely unique And if you want to have something that's special and different to help your, your team, just really understand themselves and understand each other, i definitely would recommend this tool and I recommend this particular person. I've never met anybody who just is so knowledgeable and passionate, enthusiastic about the Enneagram as you are. So thank you so much, Sarah. And that's it for this week's episode of the Enough Already podcast. Thank you so much for listening in and be sure to hit subscribe so you don't miss out on any of our other episodes And until next time. Thanks so much for listening.
